Yorpius II level design

Discussion and analysis of graphics, story, levels, and so on.
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XkyRauh
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Post by XkyRauh »

It's risky to have the player drop so far and be in sight of a Garg immediately upon landing. I'd make that underwater cavern slightly larger, and give the player a safe landing, to compensate for the stress of falling into the green door over deadly orbs.

I'd probably also extend the platform in front of the green door one tile, so that it wouldn't be so perilous if you didn't have the key. :)

It's also risky/noteworthy that it is possible, and quite easy, to complete this level without picking up one of the items necessary to finish the game successfully. Why not add another green key in the area with the ship part, and cordon off the exit door, to ensure success? With the map as it is, the player almost has to know in advance to avoid the exit.

You could also opt to place the ship part directly to the left of the door, and replace the ship part in the yellow door area with a few thousand more points--reward the players who take the time to fully explore. :)

Finally, some extra tiles with arrows or hints on them would be fantastic, especially for some of the drops in this level. On the far left, to get the blue key, it'd be nice to have a tiny "right" arrow embedded in the dirt somewhere, and a more defined arc of points leading down to the green door would be superb.

I really like this level's creative use of space--the path the player takes to complete this level is very well planned, and I'm jealous of KeenRush's creativity. :)
Stealthy71088
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Post by Stealthy71088 »

There's definitely enough room in the tileset for arrows. Having a little picture of each part at the beginning of a part level might be nice too, that way the player will make sure he looks for each part.
There are yorps in the level that can push keen to his death.
Benvolio, I don't see how the yorps could push you to your death. Are you looking at the same level I am?

I like how this level gives you some room to explore, and still maintains a definite path through the level. It's hard to get lost.

That green door is troublesome. Even if you put a block to catch keen if he has the wrong key, there's no way for him to get back up. You also have no way of knowing that you need that key until you start your drop. I think it might be a good idea to put the block Xky was talking about one space further to the left, and extend that platform another two blocks to the left. Put a little down arrow in our new hole. The blinking death is above the water is redundent- the water will kill keen just as easily. So remove the blinkers, and make a scattered bridge of platforms a block or two above the water. The first platform could start directly underneath the little hole we've made to the left of the green door. The last platform could then be placed directly underneath the lone blinker, allowing keen to jump up to the green key.

This forces keen to make that jump down to the green door from the ladder, maintaining Keenrush's original plan. It eases up the quest for the blue key, as keen doesn't need razor fast reflexes to get it in one life. Finally, once keen has dropped down to the bridge from the green door, he can't pogo up- the bridge is oneway.

There's only one raygun in the level, and at least 13 shots worth of enemies. Any suggestions as where another one or two rayguns should go?

Finally, what happens if keen, after travelling underwater, decides to head to the right instead of the left? Keen will completely miss the red key, and have no way of going back to get it. It might be a good idea to add another drop a tile or two to the left of the exit of the underwater area, so keen has a backway.[/quote]
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XkyRauh
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Post by XkyRauh »

Good points.

If we're going to add platforms over the water on the left, that's a perfect opportunity for an additional raygun. If we make one of our islands bucket-shaped, we can even include an extra Yorp!

It feels like the area down and left of the muncher plants after exiting the underwater area needs a bit more development--we could put a raygun there, but that'd be too soon after the second one in the pit. We may even be able to get away with just the two rayguns in the level anyway--the two pink Ancients on the right half of the map are simple enough to avoid, and the Swamp beast may run himself off the edge of the map if you're lucky and/or patient. Let's just put some points down there on the isolated brick of dirt. :)

As a final little nitpick, I'd move the dangerous yellow blinker to the left of the floating island after the red door to the right one tile, or eliminate it completely. It seems too... cruel.
Stealthy71088
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Post by Stealthy71088 »

If we decide to release a remake of the mod following all of the stuff we've typed here, we may all want to make one level of our own with the tileset, particularily Keenrush, since it's his mod. What do you think?
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XkyRauh
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Post by XkyRauh »

Na'ah, I thought this was just an exercise in level analysis. Catching little details here and there which aren't "wrong," but they raise awareness about how to make a level truly memorable. :) What we're doing here isn't making a level "better," we're just making the level more likely to be remembered as "Hey, that was fun!" rather than "Stupid unfair *&$#@!!!"

On the other hand, if you wanted to release a LevelPack for Yorphius, the way KeenRush released a LevelPack for XkyKeen1, you're more than welcome to. :)
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Post by Benvolio »

My apologies! I evidently wasn't looking at level7 at all, but rather at the nearest ice level SW of lev 7. Well my take on level 7 is that i agree about the "ship part", quite risky placing. The level struck me as being very pleasantly laid out, graphically comfortable, and having the ease of an early (1-6) keen1 level. And i saw the creative use of blocks for the three keys in the level!
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Post by Stealthy71088 »

XkyRauh wrote:Na'ah, I thought this was just an exercise in level analysis. Catching little details here and there which aren't "wrong," but they raise awareness about how to make a level truly memorable. :) What we're doing here isn't making a level "better," we're just making the level more likely to be remembered as "Hey, that was fun!" rather than "Stupid unfair *&$#@!!!"
I'm sorry. That was my original intention when I started this thread, but I guess I got all confused with Freeyorp.

Another comment about the level: I think the ability to go underwater in this level make it truly memorable. It makes the level a lot more exciting for two reasons. a) You're entering an area that normally would be impossible- this makes it seem secretive, mysterious. b) Something like this doesn't happen very often in the game- this adds to the excitement of the area. It's impressive how both the sky and water can be the same color, and yet the way Keenrush has the game set up, you never get confused.

It occured to me that maybe we are focusing too much on ways the level could be better than specific things about it that are really special. So I challenge everyone, including myself, to try to find a balance.

I wish Keenrush could come and comment on his levels. I would like to hear what he has to say.
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Post by KeenRush »

Stealthy71088 wrote:I wish Keenrush could come and comment on his levels. I would like to hear what he has to say.
I've been reading every post in this topic, however. ;) But I don't know what to say.. However, I appreciate that you people are still going on here. :)

Well, here's my comments about levels 5-7.

Level 5
In this level I like how player has to go in kind of cycles -- first get blue key, go up to get down, get green key, go up, go through green door, go down a bit, get back up, go down again, then through red door, down, left, up, right, down, right, exit. :)

Level 6
In this level I wanted to use those pillar tiles a bit, and made it long horizontally. The garg there, can't explain that, haha. :)

Level 7
This level looks pretty chaotic, but I still like it. Yeah, the underwater area is my favourite in it. Yeah, the collectiable item is a bit difficult to spot and get, and it's very annoying if player accidentally exits the level without collecting it. I should've done that somehow differently, but at that time I just couldn't think of any other way. :P I wasn't that good level designer.. (Not that I'm now.)
Stealthy71088
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Post by Stealthy71088 »

Yes! We have Keenrush! Now we're truly ready to go on to level 8!

The method I used last time seemed to help. Or more people suddenly wanted to post. Regardless, I have 5 mins before I catch my bus, so i dont have much of a choice.

Some Opening Thoughts

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This is the first area we see the snow theme. 
I assume that the border here is solid, walk on able.- It would have been nice if we could see it.
Is it just me, or are the gargs not much of a threat in this level? They all end up falling into places where keen can shoot them from one block up.
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Freeyorp101
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Post by Freeyorp101 »

Is it just me, or are the gargs not much of a threat in this level? They all end up falling into places where keen can shoot them from one block up.
I think it isn't so much the creature threat that makes this level interesting, but the puzzle element. I'd add a raygun at the start and make the first ledge in the second half of the level one tile longer to the left, otherwise I'd leave it as is.
It would have been nice if we could see it. (the border)
don't you use a level editor? It doesn't take that much effort to find the border in an editor, nor does it take to scan the tiles in tileinfo (real easy, since it uses the keen1 default from what I can see)


Providing the player looks before keens leaps, the level can be completed without too much difficulty (apart from the ledge, or if keen runs out of ammo)

I don't think that much change is nessecary.
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Post by Stealthy71088 »

Freeyorp101 wrote:don't you use a level editor? It doesn't take that much effort to find the border in an editor, nor does it take to scan the tiles in tileinfo (real easy, since it uses the keen1 default from what I can see)

I guess I typed that a little...weird. Let me rephrase in a much more wordier version: Just because we can see the border in keenedit doesn't mean we can see it in the level. The player doesn't know at first if those jumps are deadly or not. He or she has to experiment first, risking a life. I dont care so much that the border cant be seen in the website as I do in the level. I thought it was solid because of the swamp monster standing in the lower right side of the screen. You could argue tha there is no other possible route, but Keenrush could have easily drawn a wall tile over a sky tile using modkeen, therefore not needing a .tli file. And the player really shouldn't be looking at your tileset either.

Actually, it is a lot of work for me to check- all my keen stuff is on a different computer not hooked up to the internet. I'm not allowed to mod on this one.
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XkyRauh
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Post by XkyRauh »

The pacing of this level is good the way it is--there's enough risk and reward to keep things flowing. Keen running out of ammo might seem like a problem at the start of the level, but in practice I believe it wouldn't be too difficult to lure the Gargs against the wall and leap over them--I could be wrong with ceiling height, though. Maybe give the player 1 extra tile of headroom to clean that problem up--and that gives us a bit more flexibility for the far right-hand side of the level, as well.

The current door-key-door-key-door-exit setup is a pet peeve of mine. I like the required jump for the Red key, but the Yellow is a cakewalk. Either eliminate it entirely, (just put the Red door over the exit,) or use the extra 1 tile of vertical room to add a pit of some sort--so a mistake on the ice sends the player down to where the Red key is. :)

I agree with FreeYorp, though; this level is fine the way it is. That's the beauty of so many of these 'side' levels--they're tiny, sweet, and to the point. :)
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Post by Stealthy71088 »

There's room on the top for Keen to jump over the ancients, as well as room at that first little pit in the second area. The second area has a stalactite placed just where it can be a pain if you are trying to make the jump, so you have to be really careful. The third pit doesn't give enough room.

As it is, the ancient is two tiles tall. That gives keen a mere two tiles to jump over the ancients, which is a very difficult jump. But it can be done.

I agree with Xky about the yellow key. The way the key is set right now, all it does is take up space. There is no definitive trap, puzzle, or anything that makes a point in going up and getting the key. Now if an ancient were placed up there, where it could come down and ambush keen when he went for the red key, that would be a different story.

I like the blue key and blue door. You can't just rush through that part- you really have to think a little. The swamp monster makes it particularily interesting. However, should that swamp monster manage to jump through the blue door before being killed, that could pose a problem. If it goes too far off the screen, keen won't be able to kill it until he's untop of it, but then it'll be too late.

The same could be said of the other swamp monster, but since it's coming from the other direction, Keen should have just enough time to get rid of it.
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Post by Stealthy71088 »

I've waited a couple more days and got no more posts. That level is very good the way it is. So, on to Level 9

This is a big level, and the main ice level of Yorpius II. It has the entrance to the secret level. So I expect that there will be a lot to talk about.

To start with, this level is ridiculously hard. Granted, we've past the point that levels should be easy, but this is still a very hard level. Look at the torches in the beginning. It's very difficult to jump over the three. If you go the path that has the raygun, you'll probably run into a torch or one of the two ancients on the way down. (Keenrush, is that what they are? Ancients and Swamp Monsters? I'm just using Xky's names.)

The drop after the green key is very tough. The donuts are the only thing to clue you in to the torches bellow. If you don't move fast enough, that's it.

Finally, the jump for the yellow key is absolutely evil. It's definitely possible, but Keen has to do it perfectly at an angle thats a little tricky with the pogo.

Looking down at the path to the secret level, there's really nothing too challenging. The jump over the water with the torch looks nasty, but I never died there.

Pointwise the level is full of points, particularily the secret area. This may be appropriate, looking at the difficulty. But at some point, gaining two lives for one death gets a little out of hand.
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Post by KeenRush »

I've never been good at concealing things into levels, thus the entry to secret level is like this, hidden under a lot of tiles.. It's not that bad though, but visible from my usual level style, as I usually (at least these days) have almost all the area in level accessible and don't have much of open spaces or large areas full of blocking tiles.

I didn't even remember I had a snowy bridge in my tileset. Cool! I so love snow, hopefully I can make a snow themed mod one day. :D May take a few years, though. :)

And I never really counted points at all; I really hadn't that much planning, it didn't even occure to my mind back then. Honestly, I had no level making skills yet! :)
(Keenrush, is that what they are? Ancients and Swamp Monsters? I'm just using Xky's names.)
I think the purple ones were called 'ancient beasts', haha, or something like that, and other enemies were never named. I may remember wrong..
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