Great post, Xky! There's lots of great practical info in there.
I haven't really done much level design -- although I did make some new ones for each episode that I was proud of: problem is though, that some (the Keen 3 ones at least) appear lost in the mists of time. But I can see that you've got some very good ideas there, and have though about how the level is structured, rather than just using an ad hoc modus operandi (felt the urge to slip some Latin in there).
And I reckon you should hold off the release of your mod till the 14th, just for the sake of it.
Level Design and Keen
Thanks!
re: Spleen: The Keen2 engine is hard-coded so that when you destroy a Space Amoeba, a very specific set of tile-changes occur... you'd have to create your own custom enemy with a mirrored set of tile-changes in order to flip the Tantalus Ray structure. :-) Not saying you can't do it--just that it's a LOT of work compared to a simple level re-design.
re: KeenRush: Sorry to sound like a schoolteacher! *laughs* But I'm convinced that there is a bit of a science to level design. Much like creating art or music, there's always a certain element of "heart" put into a design, but at the same time, there's a grand base of "learned" information that helps you express that inner heart much more clearly.
re: ADurdin: I really liked your Mothership Control Room Keen2 level! The secret with going into the sign at the beginning was super-cool. My only complaint was that if the player forgot to turn the lights on before dropping down into the Airlock, there wasn't a way to turn 'em back on (not that I found, anyway). The jump on the elevator over the single sparking antenna was a pain in the neck. I could do the whole level except that jump without much trouble.
re: LevelLord: Don't get overwhelmed!! :-) This isn't a thread about "You have to do it this way" at all--I'm just offering some tricks that worked for me. This thread's about Level Design--both the "help I'm stuck for ideas!" part, and the "analysis and discussion" part.
re: 3/14: Alright, you guys talked me into it. I've still gotta finish my "Final" level, anyway (it's about 10% done), and make a README.txt. Definitely have it done by 3/14. :-D
--Xky
re: KeenRush: Sorry to sound like a schoolteacher! *laughs* But I'm convinced that there is a bit of a science to level design. Much like creating art or music, there's always a certain element of "heart" put into a design, but at the same time, there's a grand base of "learned" information that helps you express that inner heart much more clearly.
re: ADurdin: I really liked your Mothership Control Room Keen2 level! The secret with going into the sign at the beginning was super-cool. My only complaint was that if the player forgot to turn the lights on before dropping down into the Airlock, there wasn't a way to turn 'em back on (not that I found, anyway). The jump on the elevator over the single sparking antenna was a pain in the neck. I could do the whole level except that jump without much trouble.
re: LevelLord: Don't get overwhelmed!! :-) This isn't a thread about "You have to do it this way" at all--I'm just offering some tricks that worked for me. This thread's about Level Design--both the "help I'm stuck for ideas!" part, and the "analysis and discussion" part.
re: 3/14: Alright, you guys talked me into it. I've still gotta finish my "Final" level, anyway (it's about 10% done), and make a README.txt. Definitely have it done by 3/14. :-D
--Xky
Re: re: Suggesting
First, I'd extend the bottom of the level. At some point somewhere in the middle of the hallway, I'd stop the hallway and have it drop sort of like this:XkyRauh wrote:* What would you do to avoid the LHS at the top?
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This sort of solves the problem... But there are still two sections of LHS (though shorter). Well, since the bottom of the level is bigger now, I'd be able to move huge parts of the main section of the level down a few tiles, so some of the other things you have all mentioned could fit in well.
Yes. Definately.* Would you change the point distribution in the level?
I'd get rid of that one easy-to-get stuffed Vorticon, and instead spread 5000 points worth of Vorticolas and candy bars around the level. I'd definately add some to those long hallways... And probably in that small open space right before Keen jumps onto the tantalus... Maybe an arc of points. Or a small platform in the corner for Keen to pogo up to. If I wanted to make it hard at all, I could lower this section of the level (seeing as how the bottom is bigger now), but not lower the roof.
That's a tough one. I honestly have no idea... Ok, I have ideas, but they don't work :P. One is to have a second switch on the other side of the tantalus... or move the switch to there (and have it reversed). But obviously, this wouldn't work because of the specific tile changes that the Keen2 engine has hard-coded into it when space amoebas die.* How could you solve the "Oops." problem?
I had thought of putting a path underneath the tantalus to the oops switch as well... but that seemed kind of pointless.. You can't accidently hit the switch, you have to actually go out of your way just to get to it.
No and Yes. No, it's not really possible, but yes... it's a good tease. The only problem is that if the player is sensible at all, they'll see the pink hovering robot and go straight up.. and never see the tease. That should be able to be fixed fairly easily...* Do you think the Shortcut is possible? Is it worth keeping there?
The entire right side of the level (past the tantalus) is very boring. The first section (with the split drop) isn't very exciting. Neither is the last section (stuffed vorticon, and two sets of platforms). The middle section is OK.. but could be better. I'd probably change the first and third sections, so that they're joined to the second section.. Make it more open. Since I'd have the hallway coming up from underground, I'd have it at the second of those two little drops... The one on the right that is. That extra bit of hallway up the top would be useless. I'd either get rid of it to make more room, or make it contain some goodies... points and ammo. Of course, I'd have to make it a little hard to get to.. but that shouldn't be too hard, seeing as there's not a wall with platforms near it anymore (because I opened that area more). I'm not sure exactly what I'd do with the rest... Anything somewhat challenging would be good (seeing as there's been little to no challenges so far, except for that impossible shortcut).* What else would you change, if you were designing this level?
great posts xky, you really know what youre doing.
But i have to disagree on what you said about Rome. Youre saying not being able to pull the switch is a bad thing and the shortcut shouldnt be there because is it practicly impossible (my brother did it once though).
I think thats stupid because this level keeps it intersting because you have the apraoch the machine on different way...
When you play this levels for the first time you asume you just have to get to the machine, aproaching it from the front, like youre used to. But when you get there you see all those elites and the tank and youre thinking: hmhm maybe i should check the backdoor... so you take different route, sneaking trough the airvent attacking the machine from behind, surprising the elites. Levels like this keep the player interested so you got it all wrong :)
But i have to disagree on what you said about Rome. Youre saying not being able to pull the switch is a bad thing and the shortcut shouldnt be there because is it practicly impossible (my brother did it once though).
I think thats stupid because this level keeps it intersting because you have the apraoch the machine on different way...
When you play this levels for the first time you asume you just have to get to the machine, aproaching it from the front, like youre used to. But when you get there you see all those elites and the tank and youre thinking: hmhm maybe i should check the backdoor... so you take different route, sneaking trough the airvent attacking the machine from behind, surprising the elites. Levels like this keep the player interested so you got it all wrong :)