What kind Enemies would you like to see more of?

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Tulip
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What kind Enemies would you like to see more of?

Post by Tulip »

I got the idea for this topic when I read the topic about most loved and hated enemys on pckf.
This should be something similar exclusively about the mods:

The major questions for this discussions are:

Which of the monster replacements in mods did you like most?
This involves statements about the graphical appearance, as well as
gameplay differences to the original games because of the following reasons:
patching, change of size, different ammount of them in levels compared to original games.

Which did you like least?
Just the opposite of the fist question and could be answered with the same reasons.

Which kind of monsters would you like to see in future mods?
This could be things that actually have been used in mods, or have never been used before.
You could prefer a special appearance, or a certain amount (for example: I would like a mod with one hundred yorp replacements in one screen.*No I don't really want that*)
More interesting would be patches which have seldom or never been used
on enemys, and you'd like to see...

The fourth and last question is:
What enemy difficulty do you like most?
You could name multiple preferences at this point. This is just about comparing mod replacements to the originals and statments about enemy strengh, speed and stuff like that.

I'm gonna think about that for a little while now and then post an answer to my posted question.

It would be interesting to see what you guys think about that, so I hope this thread will have many answers.
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shikadi
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Post by shikadi »

Which of the monster replacements in mods did you like most?
in zapping the zot , the big replace of the guard robot , it did not shoot , i found it one of the most original sprites (i don't know if it was used it before , but that was the first (and for now) only time i seen it)
Which did you like least?

Just the opposite of the fist question and could be answered with the same reasons.
cave mans of norp the yorp 1 , they look very boring , and i found them i one level to common , it might just be that i don't see vorticon guards a lot

Which kind of monsters would you like to see in future mods?
i usually reserve some monster for special levels , in dttv , i reserved nearly all meeps for meep house (and like nospike in bloogdome , i find that typeof levels interesting) if you then make the sprite fit extremely well in the level , it will be very nice

The fourth and last question is:
What enemy difficulty do you like most? i can't answer this good , because the area where the mosnter is can affect the difficulty


i hope this was (un)helpfull :p
levellass
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Post by levellass »

Which of the monster replacements in mods did you like most?

Hmmmn, difficult... there's so many to chose from. If pushed though, I liked Ceilick's Keen 4 mod statues, that would come to life and get you if you weren't careful. Titilating.

Which did you like least?

There are so many to chose from here too... the 'worst' enemies I think were from KeenRush's first mod, Yorphius, but only because we've seen so much more inventiveness over the years, time has not been kind to them :)

As for 'Oh God! Why won't you let me win?!' enemies, I'd have to say those pesky little purple guys from Xky's Keen 3 mod. *Shudder*

Which kind of monsters would you like to see in future mods?

I'd like to see the default sprite behaviors changed around; this is just becomming possible, and it leaves open almost infinite possibilities. Looks are in the end, secondary to me, since what makes the game in my opinion is how the various characters interact with Keen.

What enemy difficulty do you like most?

I like a good mix; there should be some nice low-level grunts you can blast away at, but it's also nice to have an enemy that's almost impossible to deal with, maybe they swarm you, maybe they're sneaky, maybe they're immortal, but your only hope is to figure out their weaknessess and outwit them. That, is the perfect enemy for me.

In the original games I achgieve this by not shooting as many guys as possible.
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Tulip
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Post by Tulip »

I feel like posting something on this topic now.

Which of the monster replacements in mods did you like most?
In terms of graphics I decided to place "Spiney" (Garg) of Oracle Janitor first, because it looks just great when it looks on its own back.
I like this strange but still very organic looks.
In terms of gameplay I got one favourite: The "Iax" (Vorticon Elite) of Keenq. I didn't like the vorticon elite beforehand, because I thought it's too hard with being fast and shooting. Now the Iax only needs one shot, is smaller and not deadly to touch. While still shooting and jumping this is one of the most interesting and balanced enemys seen in a Keen game. If you don't count hitting switches and pogoing, it's got the same ablilities and weaknesses as Keen himself. The Vorticon Elite didn't have much of a use in levels, but to keep you from going any place where they were. The Iax is use in a good way, too, you encounter it often, get to play with it, and some places (where you don't have to go) were packed with them.

Which did you like least?
In terms of graphics there are some examples of monsters being uninventive or just badly drawn, like the ones from Keen0 or Robot Rebellion.
Same counts for patching.
There are two examples of patched monsters I don't like much:
The Guard Robot replacement in Harvey's Mod 2 is just shooting tooooo much, it doesn't even give you any chance of doing something against it.
Second the Octopus-in-a-Pumpkin in the Halloween Mod. Not that it is bad as such, this could be a really interesting foe with it charging alway unexpectedly, but I think it wasn't use right, you have to place such a difficult monster in places where you know it's coming, and then you purposefully approach it. If it most of the time kills you unexpected then it's just annoying.

Which kind of monsters would you like to see in future mods?
Basically I like to see the replacement to have a distinct character or behaviour from the original monster. As we've seen in some mods size changes can already grant that, if you don't want to patch. (Examples: the above mentioned Iax together with the Blak (Vorticon) of the same mod for being smaller than the original, my Megamonst (Guard Robot) or the frenzied Funghi (Tin can) in Perilous Pursuit.
Also I'd like to see some patching, as long as it fits. Impressive is the patched Alien Eggs that hatch into Facehuggers in Aliens vs Keen.
I remember the first patched monster I encountered was the Codobar (Tank Robot) in Hiding from the Sky. I was so surprised when I discovered that it can actually be killed, and so this actually changed the character of the whole monster. I like that.

What enemy difficulty do you like most?
I know that depends on where the monster is located and so the question cannot be answered by saying: "I like a monster to be medium hard." That doesn't help anybody.
As an example I can compare the Tooth Plier (from Christmas mod) to the above mentioned Pumpkin. They're both Garg replacements but both act on different difficulty levels. The Tooth Plier never charges (which is because of height changes and propably unintentional by the modmaker), and so the monster is never actually attacking. It's therefore an easy enemy. I like these kinds of enemys because you actually see them longer before they got you or you have to kill them. Also this monster can virtually be placed anywhere in a level, even in larger numbers without rendering the level discouragingly difficult.
The Pumpkin on the other hand is also interesting, but it's difficulty may be on one level with a Vortininja (It's also always attacking, in an unforseeable way). This kind of monster should be kept in a cage where you enter if you want to fight it, and then be rewarded with treasures or say a keycard.
As Levellass said the balance of monsters is important. I think keen 1 is good there as well as say Keen 6: Some monsters don't kill, some are easy, som hard.
It's good to have some relatively harmless creatures in mods, that won't kill you directly, and then some other which are really challenging, but you won't encounter but in special places.
I generally don't like levels that are too crowded with monsters (yes I know my level 4 of Silcar 2 is, but that is just the special concept of this one level.), or too less so you feel a bit alone, or even plainly bored.
I like Shikadi's idea of a monster that fits in a certain level and is found there in large numbers. Ceilick actually did that with his Garg Hunter Caves: Small levels with the only extremely hard Garg Hunters as enemies.
As I said in the level design difficulty topic: Short levels might have lots of mad monsters in them, long ones shouldn't have unexpected ones shortly before the exit when you already played the level for an hour searching the keys.

Edit: I almost forgot: In my Garg comparing thing there is another guy fitting in: the Shadow of Shadowkeen 1. I very much like this guy. The behaviour basically stays the same as the original Garg, but by being nearly invisible (especially in Episode B, but there the graphics are so jumbled that you barely see anything that's happening) this adds a new twist to the creature. The Garg is very suited for such a camoflage creature with its charging.
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XkyRauh
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Re: What kind Enemies would you like to see more of?

Post by XkyRauh »

Tulip wrote:Which of the monster replacements in mods did you like most?
This involves statements about the graphical appearance, as well as
gameplay differences to the original games because of the following reasons:
patching, change of size, different ammount of them in levels compared to original games.
I'm big on hypercephalic things (big heads) because I think it makes them look cuter and more approachable, but in general I am more impressed by creatures which animate well than by detailed but rigid creatures.
This means I tend to favor the Vorticon replacements, because they get more frames of animation--but depending on how they're used, I might lean more towards a 2-framer, just because I like the captured motion more.
Tulip wrote:Which did you like least?
Just the opposite of the fist question and could be answered with the same reasons.
Same deal, but reversed--if someone uses the four frames given to a Vorticon replacement to cut-paste the feet at different heights, or there's no actual deformation of the character, I'm going to be a little disappointed.
Tulip wrote:Which kind of monsters would you like to see in future mods?
This could be things that actually have been used in mods, or have never been used before.
You could prefer a special appearance, or a certain amount (for example: I would like a mod with one hundred yorp replacements in one screen.*No I don't really want that*)
More interesting would be patches which have seldom or never been used
on enemys, and you'd like to see...
After modding Keen:Vorticons, I fell in love with the Vorticons (No, LevelLord, not like that) because of how flexible they are, as an enemy type. They jump! They run! They look around!
You can make 'em take one shot, and they're pseudo-intelligent grunts who can guard an area en masse... you can make 'em take five shots, and they're an effective boss--not too fast, but dangerous enough that you have to think twice before charging in.
Tulip wrote:The fourth and last question is:
What enemy difficulty do you like most?
You could name multiple preferences at this point. This is just about comparing mod replacements to the originals and statments about enemy strengh, speed and stuff like that.
Games for me have always been more about exploration and atmosphere than actual combat with enemies. If there's a level that is laid out smoothly, I'm not going to care if I never have to fire a shot--the jumping and pogoing are enough to keep me satisfied.
However, I definitely appreciate a craftily executed trap or puzzle. It's all about pacing and balance.
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Post by levellass »

I hereby swear to make an enemy that is all head for Xky. His enemies just look too cute. :)
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Tulip
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Post by Tulip »

I already got two "hypercephalic" monsters in my new mod... although I don't think they're too cute, because they also have big mouths and big sharp teeth...
Vatnos
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Re: What kind Enemies would you like to see more of?

Post by Vatnos »

Which of the monster replacements in mods did you like most?
I think the Keen 9 critters were pretty good. In particular I liked:
-The Service Droid: I like having something harmless that can only push you around, populating the levels en masse. Every Keen game has to have at least one of these hapless little guys.
-Shikadi Aggrolyte: a great reinterpretation of the Shikadi. Giving them the ability to crawl up pipes made them more menacing and dynamic than they were in K5.
-Probe Carrier: very interesting reuse of the shikadi mine, in that exploding causes it to release more smaller enemies that chase you around.
-Krodacian Overlord: always important to have some kind of enemy that's very dangerous.

Which did you like least?
That's a tough question to answer. The games I thought less of were also the ones I tended to forget the most about.

Which kind of monsters would you like to see in future mods?
-Well for starters, more types of them. At least twice as many.
-I like the different types of Vorticons. They all jumped around and deliberately followed you, and they moved in different ways depending what type they were. Turning off the lights made them stop jumping (I like that kind of interaction with the environment). You can shoot them, and different types took different numbers of hits, depending how difficult they were intended to be.
-In Keen 2, the Vorticon Elder was underused. I'd like to see that kind of character pop up more.
-Also in Keen 2, the scrub was a great character. It could carry you up the walls to hidden places. Sometimes riding one was necessary to beat the level. In general I like many things about Keen 2 from a theory standpoint.
-A good example of what I don't like would be Keen 4's roster. Too many types of enemies that you can't shoot. Some of them move randomly and kill you with 1 hit. That's also my sentiments about the Slicestars in Keen 5.

What enemy difficulty do you like most?
Overall I'd say Keen 3. This game had a large population of semi-sentient enemies that posed a threat, but could also be mowed down very cathartically, Duke Nukem 1 style. The other games had more reliance on things you couldn't kill (but which could kill you) to limit your movement, but this tended to cause more waiting or reliance on luck in the case of the Slicestars and Skypests.
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Ceilick
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Post by Ceilick »

Dust off and highlight a few quotes from our guardians of wisdom which I find particularly useful in modding enemy creatures:
Shikadi in 2008 wrote:i usually reserve some monster for special levels , in dttv , i reserved nearly all meeps for meep house (and like nospike in bloogdome , i find that typeof levels interesting) if you then make the sprite fit extremely well in the level , it will be very nice
Levellass in 2008 wrote:since what makes the game in my opinion is how the various characters interact with Keen.
Tulip in 2008 wrote:I like these kinds of enemys because you actually see them longer before they got you or you have to kill them. Also this monster can virtually be placed anywhere in a level, even in larger numbers without rendering the level discouragingly difficult.
Tulip in 2008 wrote:It's good to have some relatively harmless creatures in mods, that won't kill you directly, and then some other which are really challenging, but you won't encounter but in special places.
Vatnos wrote:Turning off the lights made them stop jumping (I like that kind of interaction with the environment).
This is a great thing to highlight. Being able to affect enemies without directly engaging (or even seeing!) them is a great way to keep things interesting.

As for Tulip's original questions:

Which of the monster replacements in mods did you like most?

Strange looking and not too anthropomorophic or earthly, and typically not 'simple shapes' (for example, we don't need more ball enemies like bounders or licks).

As far as behavior, any monster that does more than just move and kill. While basic enemies similar to this are needed and fun to just shoot down, it is boring if many different creatures are like this.

And as Tulip points out, creatures that can be interacted with without the constant threat of death (although death remains possible) are typically very fun.

Which did you like least?

Creatures which ignore Keen, don't move, or simple 'walk and kill' enemies. Monsters that frequently attack from off screen--this is sometimes fun and exciting, but if a creature does it constantly it's a frustration.

Which kind of monsters would you like to see in future mods?

Monsters with freedom of movement (not limited to 'arenas') and that do more than kill Keen, that pose other problems and interactions.

What enemy difficulty do you like most?

I like enemies which can kill Keen if the player is sloppy or if the monster has some unique and devlish attack it sometimes uses. I like creatures which generally just need to be avoided and outrun. The 'medium to high' threat enemy.

Obviously a variety of different creature difficulties are necessary for a good enemy roster, but the above would be my ideal for what is experienced most and from most of the different monsters.
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Post by levellass »

What tears at me is EMH monsters; when I make a monster I CAN put it only on M\H, but then I know I also have code there automatically for easy placement and it stings me to not use that option. but if I use it then there's nothing 'missing' from the easy runthroughs.


Arrrgh!
Bernie
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Post by Bernie »

i only really hate enemies that either you can't kill or if you shoot them they only stun temporarily. (well i made enemies myself like that, but if they're really slow or not much of a threat then i think its okay).
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Post by troublesomekeen »

I'd like to see more monsters that sit still and are the size of a 16 x 16 tile. We saw something like this in ValoKeen (skulls). Basically the sprites act as destroyable tiles that could be used to hide entrances to secret passages, as in Hocus Pocus.
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Post by levellass »

Funny you should mention that, I'm trying to patch actual destroyable tiles in Keen 4 which means these become less important. (Also it allows a lot more of them.)
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Post by Bernie »

im thinking something like turning Keen's shot into another sprite action when it hits walls (actually, it does that anyway) that has smirky's 'eating tiles' tile collision?
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Post by levellass »

Something similar, yes. Except due to ow my mod works tiles 'catch fire' and can burn across the level. It's amazingly hard to make good destructible tiles, the tile code is a mysterious beast.


On a related note,t his patch turns all deadly tiles into raindrop tiles; watch keen nibble his way through levels!
#Deadly tiles are raindrops
%patch $D247 $1978W
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