FINALE

[KeenRush]

If I remember correct there wasn't much unused material in Keen 3..

[ckguy]

Yeah, it seemed like they really used just about all of the tiles ... I'd say there were fewer that 10 yellow tiles.

[XkyRauh]

Yeah, that's true--Keen3 did have a large number of point items on various backgrounds, and there was a variety of scenes... *shrugs* guess Keen2's the worst case, then.

There are no animating solids, by default!! You guys know the red sensor lights that the Vorticon Elders speak to you though? Those act like the Dangly Green Stuff in Keen1--solid on top but deadly on the sides and underneath. Very frustrating... Keen2's got at least 6 4frame animating background tiles, and a 2frame'er at that, but no animating SOLIDS by default.

I'm pretty sure Keen1 had at least a few... (like the ID logo was solid or something)

--Xky

[KeenRush]

Actually, what is the problem in that there isn't animated solid? :P You can easily do the change yourself if you want to. Oh, and don't ask me why there isn't solid.. :)

[XkyRauh]

Oh, I could definitely go in and change the TileInfo if I wanted... but it's sort of a personal goal I have, to make as few changes as possible--which is why I cancelled my patch request for the Grunt Foreground thing. My Keen1 mod was made without changing any of the TileInfo... I think all I changed were the graphics, levels, and text. No patches for 0 shots at death, breakable tiles, etc.

My Keen2 mod is breaking the rules already by having the 0shots-for-pogo patch, but I think that in the big picture, my mod will be better because of it--something as trivial as the Grunt's foreground thing is questionable.

I can definitely make due without an animating solid--it just would have been nice to have one with the default TileInfo!

--Xky *working on the MAP level for his Keen2 mod*

[KeenRush]

Well, why not patches? Well, I understand, orginality..

[XkyRauh]

*laughs again* I think my motivation isn't to create a *NEW* game with the Keen engine--I just want to create an *alternate* game, or a *different* game... New levels, new art, new map and ending, but the same basic GAMEPLAY.

I wasn't the biggest fan of Isis, for the main reason that it incorporated several ideas that I don't associate with Keen--mainly, Health, multiple Weapons, and on-the-fly swimming / envrionmental destruction.
Personally, I associate Health with Monster Bash or Bio Menace; same with multiple Weapons. Swimming on the fly is Mario Bros, and Environmental Destruction is Sonic the Hedgehog.

Keen is just that little one-hit kid with the Pogo and Neural Stunner--and for the most part, my mods will reflect that. I don't want excess water, mutable environments, health, or more than one weapon. As such, my mods are probably a bit more 'conservative.'

Man, we've really dragged this topic off... :-) This is supposed to be about Finale files!

--Xky

[JosephBurke]

I agree with everything you've just said Xky, except I'd add a little rule in there. Extra things like swimming and the use of devices and other weapons are fine so long as they don't overshadow the traditional gameplay. The Boobous Bombs in Keen Dreams are a good example of an extra weapon used within acceptable limits, the Well of Wishes in Keen4 is only one level and doesn’t overshadow, and the shuttle pass and grappling hook and sandwich in Keen6 are all devices used in a limited fashion.

We should also keen in mind not to follow Carmack in declaring everything a gimmick; he even declared ragdoll effects in a game a gimmick. Does anyone remember that, I'm sure some of you heard about it, :D

[KeenRush]

Yikes, you're right. Sorry everyone.
But yeah, it's still the same game for me, just stuff changed. And I will keep my Keen one-health-pointed with one gun too.. And probably it isn't even possible to change those..

[XkyRauh]

NO! Don't compromise yourself like that! If you've got an idea, run with it--please! You may well find some new gameplay tactic that is really fun. Think about the exploration potential added by Mario's ability to fly in Mario3, Samus's Grappling Beam, Link's Dash Boots, and so on.

Just because I design my mods in a limited, specific way doesn't mean you should too. If everyone listened to everybody else's criticism all the time, there'd be nothing new... or something.

I look forward to your mods, KeenRush. :-) You're easily the most active person on these forums, and likely one of the most enthusiastic. Anything you create that's Keen-related comes from the heart--and it shows.

--Xky

[CommanderSpleen]

We should also keen in mind not to follow Carmack in declaring everything a gimmick; he even declared ragdoll effects in a game a gimmick.

Heh, reminds me of a certain 3TRFM, a local commercial radio station... it got to the point where you could almost set your watch based on which song was playing.

Over the past couple of weeks, they've changed this... but now they've taken it all too far and created the 'No-Repeat Workday'--if the same song is played twice between nine and five, they'll give $1,000 to anyone that calls up and points it out. After this, they have two countdowns... advertised, "Same songs, different order."

*laughs again* I think my motivation isn't to create a *NEW* game with the Keen engine--I just want to create an *alternate* game, or a *different* game... New levels, new art, new map and ending, but the same basic GAMEPLAY.

I'm taking a completely different approach with my mod. I love creating things beyond preset conditions, creating a world that almost borders on novelty. It's mostly the story and a surreal atmosphere I'm aiming at. And the world that Keen finds himself in gives me a whole lot of freedom to put into action ideas that most would view as unusable, if it ever even crosses their mind.

It's an intriguing cause, nonetheless, to use strictly pre-existing conditions to modify, in the truest sense of the word, an existing game into something else. I don't expect, though, that I'll attempt such a project, simply for the fact that I work from a different angle.

As best I can, I'm working around elements that are reminiscent of Marooned on Mars (ie. situation-specific elements such as the ending sequence and the goal of collecting four items for [insert machine here]), as it feels too much like I'm creating a parody rather than an entire episode if things remain too much the same... and I'm very cliche-sensitive, so I have a low tolerance, in my own creations, for ideas that are repeated too frequently.

If I could, I would implement the following in my mod:
- More enemies, each with flexible AI and appearances
- Entirely different ending sequence
- All sorts of interactive map elements
- Spawning/teleporting of enemies
- Properties for animated tiles based on each individual frame
- Destructable blocks

And the list goes on. This is precicely why I'm working on a platform game engine in which nothing is set in stone (of course, the fact that I'm working with TGF means that some levels of flexibility are not profitable in terms of effort and performance, but I'll leave options open for anyone who wants to make modifications).

Extra things like swimming and the use of devices and other weapons are fine so long as they don't overshadow the traditional gameplay. ... the Well of Wishes in Keen4 is only one level and doesn’t overshadow

Woah... I'd forgotten about the water element in Keen4. Now that I've thought about that, all sorts of crazy ideas are coming to mind that can be used for an extremely unorthodox Keen4 mod...

Can level entry locations be placed in water on the map, or do they need to be on islands? If so, I have some wacky ideas... if not, well, I have some wackier ideas.

I probably won't attempt a Keen4 mod until more editing tools and patches are made available, as I prefer not to rebuild history, even for novelty's sake.

NO! Don't compromise yourself like that! If you've got an idea, run with it--please!

Most definitely. Each to his own. It's all relative--for example, Xky's working at improvising with what's available without changing the engine itself, Ilsoap's working within gravitational restrictions, and I'm aiming to create an episode that is as different from the original engine as need be to accomodate my plans. (I'm simplifying things a lot here, but it gets the point across.)

So, if your mod requires health or other features that move away from the original gameplay, I'm sure you'd be able to overcome the pitfalls associated with them if you were dead-set on using them. It'd take some very original thought, and might change the direction of your mod, though, so again it's all relative to what your motivation is.

>Commander Spleen[/quote]

[KeenRush]

Oooh, great stuff.. :)

Can level entry locations be placed in water on the map

I guess it's possible.
Yeah, and it isn't so much that we can get in to Keen 4 modding, only thing is that adurdin can sometime make his utility to import (if I remember correct he said somewhere that he can extract graphics)..

[JosephBurke]

Can level entry locations be placed in water on the map, or do they need to be on islands? If so, I have some wacky ideas... if not, well, I have some wackier ideas.

Yes, I'd imagine so, though I've never tested or tried it myself, so who knows.

[Steaver370]

i think what would happen with in-water levels is that although they could be entered fine, keen would probably revert back to Walking Keen after beating the level or "Exiting To Shadowlands"

[KeenRush]

Ah, pretty clever point. Now when I think it, yes, it probably is that way - since it's just some sprites that change Keen to swimming animation, on that beach/shore to islands and to the bigger land..