TILE TIEM

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CommanderSpleen
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TILE TIEM

Post by CommanderSpleen »

Well, I've been working on some tiles lately, but it's pretty difficult without a clear idea of what each level needs to contain. So, that's the first thing we need to figure out: a list of all the platform types, scenery props and backgrounds each level theme requires.

To speed up level development, I propose we then create very simple black and white placeholders for all the objects, which can then be drawn in properly as the tilesets consolidate themselves.

The Map

Let's start with the slug territory.

Slug Outpost

Slug Village

Slug City

Slug River Crossing

Stream

I'll go through and list what we've already got later, unless someone ninjas me. In the meantime, suggest whatever you think will fit these level themes and I'll add them to this thread. Concept photos, drawings, or examples from other games would be handy.
lemm
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Post by lemm »

creppy trees with eyes
torches for underground
various spikes

As for the slug village and city, I am imagining minimal stuff above ground, and a lot of stuff underground. If you ever saw the movie Antz, they had big open caverns...

Image
(Sort of like this, minus the ant-ball)


Slug outpost:
Rickety wooden observation towers on comically tall stilt legs.
Various slug weaponry, maybe hanging on clothes lines?
Pikes sticking out of ground.


Slug city:
underground throne room for slug king complete with statues, stone gargoyles, pillars, that giant slug statue =), maybe a prison cell with a lick in it


Stream:
Parts of the level could be turned into a raft ride using wooden platform sprite for crossing water tiles

-moving water tiles
-rocks sticking out of stream with water splashing over them
-mini waterfall (viewed side on)
-trees/logs fallen across river
-various leafy shrubbery in the background (can also be reused for forest theme)
-the dirt underneath the river can have miniature "veins" of water drooling around the rocks; this effect was used at points in jazz jackrabbit
-ladders/piers
Last edited by lemm on Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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doomjedi
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Post by doomjedi »

All are very good ideas.

We can even make weapon training areas or even "boxing" rings for duels.

BTW - how many people here plan to do art for this mod, in any way?
I hope I'm not the only one, as I have less experience in backgrounds and some other areas.
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Fleexy
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Post by Fleexy »

I can try*.

*but generally fail
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doomjedi
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Post by doomjedi »

Slugs don't have hands, so possible weaponry for them is very limited...and mostly connected to chestplates or helmets...

P.S. I really don't want to be the only art spriter for this mod...
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Deltamatic
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Post by Deltamatic »

doomjedi wrote:Slugs don't have hands, so possible weaponry for them is very limited...and mostly connected to chestplates or helmets...
They could hold things with their mouths, antannae, or put things onto their skin. Since their skin is coated with poisonous slime it's sticky.
doomjedi wrote:P.S. I really don't want to be the only art spriter for this mod...
Yes, that would be too much work for one person. I know Ceilick and Paramultart can do graphics, but Ceilick is working on his own mods and Paramultart is also making a mod.
lemm
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tielset update

Post by lemm »

Been working on 1TIL0002.BMP, which is the "general daylight theme" containing many people's tiles, and will probably be used in slug areas. Most of the work has been trying to nail down a good layout allowing for both jump-from-beneath and galaxy style platform styles. There are still a few more odd slope pieces I need to make, so I'll keep updating this BMP... it could be a useful template for other tilesets. I just updated dropbox with the testmod, you can check out level 4 to see a small preview. (Yous till ahve to go to the slug bridge to get the pepper for entry to levle 4).

Image

Some things that this tileset could use:

- more vegetaton, particularly that on which keen can stand; expanding on the trees would be a good start
- indoor theme for inside the stone houses.
- slug guard post tiles
- underground slug city elements
- hazards
- animated tiles
- retractable/extendable bridge blocks and switch (horizontal and vertical)


I think the checkerboard pattern used in tileset was a good "complexity level" for the main foreground texture. Given that there are so many slope combinations (even just including 1/1 and 1/2) and background combinations, anything more would probably be hell to make levels with.

doomjedi wrote:P.S. I really don't want to be the only art spriter for this mod...
Well, I'm alright at taking existing stuff and fitting it to a tileset (i.e. mundane busy work), but I can't really draw anything beyond primitive geometric shapes. So if you have any really good textures, I could try to expand upon them (turn them into slopes, combine with backgrounds, etc). Just as long as I'm not actually making the original content :p
Last edited by lemm on Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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doomjedi
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Re: tielset update

Post by doomjedi »

lemm wrote:Been working on 1TIL0002.BMP
It looks very nice, the mod is really getting shape artwise :)
Still, alot of art I saw here on the forum are yet not in this tileset...can give plenty of examples.
- more vegetaton, particularly that on which keen can stand; expanding on the trees would be a good start
Yes, indeed.
- indoor theme for inside the stone houses.

What kind of things we can expect there? Kitchen tools, sofas and such urban look....or more primitive "cavemen"-style scenery?
- slug guard post tiles
Yes, that's a must. I'll see what I can do.
- underground slug city elements
Can you give examples, ideas?
- hazards
Let's think about those. How they differ from enemies, coding-wis,, art-wise and animation-wise?
We can use some Keen 4 elements, like mud or poison pools?
Any other ideas? Avalanches? Sinking sands? Flesh-Eating plants?
animated tiles
Any more particular ideas? Plants with moving eyes?...?
Can you make eyes to follow the player?
- retractable/extendable bridge blocks and switch (horizontal and vertical)
Sounds interesting :) Should we go for hi-tech or low-tech look? Any nice concepts?
I think the checkerboard pattern used in tileset was a good "complexity

Sorry for noob question - but can you explain/show me that "checkboard pattern" means?
Well, I'm alright at taking existing stuff and fitting it to a tileset (i.e. mundane busy work), but I can't really draw anything beyond primitive geometric shapes. So if you have any really good textures, I could try to expand upon them (turn them into slopes, combine with backgrounds, etc). Just as long as I'm not actually making the original content :p
Ok, I get the situation. We'll see what we can do. What textures we might need? Any good ideas?
Can you at least make IDEAS and CONCEPTS for textures?
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doomjedi
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Post by doomjedi »

and switch (horizontal and vertical)
Image
lemm
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Post by lemm »

Pretty much everything should have a primitive caveman feel, or at most, a middle-ages look. Certainly no urban themes in this episode.

Hazards:
MOST Hazard tiles have to be static, either animated or non-animated, like in keen vorticons. The game isn't built to have tiles that are hazardous part of the time and not hazardous for the other part.
Having said that, you can still make a few dynamic items like those keen4 shovels, or keen5 forcefields, that are based on tiles and are only hazardous part of the time. These elements will only be able to be used about 12 times per level though (similar to how many ice cube cannons you can place in keen1).

ideas for animated tiles and hazards:
-like you said, Avalanches would be good. Perhaps a 45 degree slope with rolling rocks could be set to slippery top.

-Carnivorous plants are always nice =)

-Floating logs on the water, can make them bob up and down

-Shadowlands trees with faces... I'll see if I can make their eyes follow keen; if not, they can just have an animation pattern where they look around.

-Pits of oil, slime, tar, water, lava, other deadly fluids

-Dripping water, or waterfalls, or water seeping over tiles

Textures:
-ideas
arch site bricks, sand, canyon rocks, moss covered rocks, caverns, inside stone houses, inside log houses...



What I meant by the checkerboard pattern was that there were only 2 types of tiles, and they repeat like:

ABABAB
BABABA
ABABAB
.. etc

on the other hand, if the pattern is something like:

ABABAB
CDCDCD
ABABAB
CDCDCD

or

ABCABCABC
DEFDEFDEF


then I would think that such a pattern might be hard to use, given all the possible slope combinations and backgrounds one could make; perhaps this is not the case though, it's just my speculation.
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doomjedi
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Post by doomjedi »

...any feedback on the switches? Please feedback my art, so I will know if they fit, and if anything to fix in them.
lemm wrote:Pretty much everything should have a primitive caveman feel, or at most, a middle-ages look. Certainly no urban themes in this episode.

What about simple wooden chairs and/or tables?

So you mean vases (maybe vases and pots filled with slug poison/slug poison storage items, candles, fireplaces (animated?), windows, candeleers, woodpiles....?...what are things that can specifically fit Slugs and their daily lifestyle? How their food-preparing/kitchen can look?
Should there be toilets?
Games maybe, board games, gaming items? - Not to get bored in the village?
Beds?
-like you said, Avalanches would be good. Perhaps a 45 degree slope with rolling rocks could be set to slippery top.
Just to remind you - we already have a few "rolling" enemies, one of which is actually a "rock"...kinda...
-Floating logs on the water, can make them bob up and down
Again, too bad the jumping fish didn't make it in...

Yes, logs are great idea.
-Pits of oil, slime, tar, water, lava, other deadly fluids
Ok, sounds fun to make :) Can they be animated?
-Dripping water, or waterfalls, or water seeping over tiles
Drawing/Coding-wise - should they be "tile specific", or can they use transparency and be more "general"?
arch site bricks, sand, canyon rocks, moss covered rocks, caverns, inside stone houses, inside log houses...
Wow, lot's of work...
I do have plenty of free time next week though...

What I meant by the checkerboard pattern was that there were only 2 types of tiles, and they repeat like:

ABABAB
BABABA
ABABAB
.. etc
Ahh...got it...

But It's hard to make trees that way, and almost totally impossable to make a tilable guard tower...as it uses height.

Another thing about the guard tower - it that I need to make them accessable to slugs to be able to climb in and out of guard tower. And that's challenging idea-wise and tile-wise.
Any ideas?

on the other hand, if the pattern is something like:

then I would think that such a pattern might be hard to use, given all the possible slope combinations and backgrounds one could make; perhaps this is not the case though, it's just my speculation.
Well, slopes shouldn't work on guard towers for example...
Should Trees have slopes BTW

Anyway - tilemaking is a whole other art-style, and I have to get used to making such art. It's challenging. I did tilesets before though....but that was long time ago.
Last edited by doomjedi on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lemm »

Here's some more stuff to think about. Sorry in advance if you already know this or I am repeating myself.

Technical babble
There are three types of tiles: foreground, masked, background.

-Foreground tiles: Drawn completely in front of keen (and other sprites).
-Masked: Supplied with a black and white mask (which is the next tile in the tileset), only part of the tile is drawn in front of sprites; the rest is drawn behind. If the mask is not black and white, only certain colours will be masked, giving a sort of stained glass effect.
-Background tiles: completely behind keen... these include points items, keycards, doors, message tiles, rayguns, etc etc.

In the CKCM, ALL animated tiles will have an 8 frame animation pattern, but we don't need to have 8 separate graphics for each animated tile. For example, there could be a two frame graphic, which goes 1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2. Or you could have a 5 frame graphic, which goes 1-2-3-4-5-4-3-2, etc etc. (Technically, a non-animating tile is just 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.... but it still has 8 frames so to speak).

In additon, we can have masked animated tiles (which were not allowed in vorticons).

In the maps, there are two planes: one for tiles, one for sprites. This will be a very aggrivating limitation.

For slopes, we can have 1:1, 1:2, and 1:4. 1:1 and 1:2 will definietly be used often like in galaxy; 1:4, I am not so sure, maybe here and there, since it will take up a large number of tiles.

Comments/Opinion
I think all the ideas you suggested are good. Perhaps you could even make modern devices with ancient building materials, like Flintstones (eg, a stone television set; stone furniture). Just so long as it LOOKS old, using old building materials, in my opinion, is more important than realism. Spleen did say we're going for a cartoonish atmosphere rather than ultra-real.

Light comes from the top left. Also, tiles should have a bit of depth on the TOP, but not on the sides. (i.e., the top border is contained in the next tile above the tile that keen stands on, roughly 4 pixels up).

Yes, hazards should definitely be animated. Irregular animation patterns would be good too to make the background more interesting.
Drawing/Coding-wise - should they be "tile specific", or can they use transparency and be more "general"?
This will be a tricky part. Definitely, we want them to be general so we can reuse elements. We only have one tile plane, however, so to make different combinations of platform and background elements, you could save your platform and foreground elements with transparency. Then, anyone can take those elements, combine them with background patterns in an image editor, and get the final tile to paste into the tileset. Not sure if that is what you meant...

Trees should have slopes.

If you want the slugs to get up and down the guard post, there are two things we can do.

The First is to make a set of sloped tiles that they can walk up. This would be like a spiral staircase, where the slopes zig-zag back and forth, and the slugs turn around at the ends. One flight of stairs would be about (or at least) 4 tiles wide, the slugs would come to a "balcony" on each floor of two tiles wide or so, hit a railing, turn around, and continue up the next flight. I can frig with tile properties so that they will march in a loop, up one set of stairs, and down another set of stairs. (Check demo level 14 in the CKCM dropbox).

The second (and not my favorite) option would be just to use a platform that lifts the slugs up. But they will need slopes to get back down.

Finally, with regards to the checkerboard coment I made earlier, that is just a suggestion, and it was only for large land masses, not for things like trees, guard posts, etc. Basically, my point was that it would be a bad thing if there are 4 or 6 different types of 45-degree sloped tiles per direction, each on 4 different backgrounds, because that would spiral quickly out of control and be utterly confusing for making levels.
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doomjedi
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Post by doomjedi »

lemm wrote:Here's some more stuff to think about. Sorry in advance if you already know this or I am repeating myself.
Thank you :)
I'm new to Keen modding, but not to Keen and/or Modding (of other games). So I indeed can ask some noob questions - but with my modding and gaming experience I have all the "tools" to easily understand what you're talking about.
Indeed, some things you said were known to me, but some were new, so thank you for your patience.
-Foreground tiles: Drawn completely in front of keen (and other sprites).
About drawing priority I understand, and for that they probably need to be blockable as well I guess.
But can they use transparency?
Are those "platform tiles" in your terms?
-Masked: Supplied with a black and white mask (which is the next tile in the tileset)
You do the masks right? I don't have to worry?
This is like upper edge of the platform, right?
-Background tiles: completely behind keen... these include points items, keycards, doors, message tiles, rayguns, etc etc.
Ok, drawing priority is clear, and illiminates question about possible transparency.
Light comes from the top left Also, tiles should have a bit of depth on the TOP, but not on the sides. (i.e., the top border is contained in the next tile above the tile that keen stands on, roughly 4 pixels up)..
This is an example of things I did know :)
This will be a tricky part. Definitely, we want them to be general so we can reuse elements. We only have one tile plane, however, so to make different combinations of platform and background elements, you could save your platform and foreground elements with transparency. Then, anyone can take those elements, combine them with background patterns in an image editor, and get the final tile to paste into the tileset. Not sure if that is what you meant...
Yes, that's what I meant...kinda.
If you want the slugs to get up and down the guard post, there are two things we can do.
I was asking more artwise, to make artwise a way to have "logical" towers with entrance. But if you can make slugs to actually enter them - it can be top cool :)
The First is to make a set of sloped tiles that they can walk up. This would be like a spiral staircase, where the slopes zig-zag back and forth, and the slugs turn around at the ends. One flight of stairs would be about (or at least) 4 tiles wide, the slugs would come to a "balcony" on each floor of two tiles wide or so, hit a railing, turn around, and continue up the next flight. I can frig with tile properties so that they will march in a loop, up one set of stairs, and down another set of stairs. (Check demo level 14 in the CKCM dropbox).
Great ideas! :D
The second (and not my favorite) option would be just to use a platform that lifts the slugs up. But they will need slopes to get back down.
Yes, I did think of that...but got the same conclusion
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doomjedi
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Post by doomjedi »

Animated platform acid:

Image

Current ckcm tileset looks really nice...who made it? Why can't he made more tiles? He seem to be very good at it...
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doomjedi
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Post by doomjedi »

lemm wrote: The First is to make a set of sloped tiles that they can walk up. This would be like a spiral staircase, where the slopes zig-zag back and forth, and the slugs turn around at the ends. One flight of stairs would be about (or at least) 4 tiles wide, the slugs would come to a "balcony" on each floor of two tiles wide or so, hit a railing, turn around, and continue up the next flight. I can frig with tile properties so that they will march in a loop, up one set of stairs, and down another set of stairs. (Check demo level 14 in the CKCM dropbox).
Cool, we can hide keys in those towers....very logical mapping wise, and challenge to get them :)

But I still have problems with your concept....can you draw it more clear?

Image
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