Map Layout

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Grimson
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Post by Grimson » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:20 pm

There could be SGA warning signs
Well, I didn't want to rely on the player stopping to decypher the text. Skull and crossbones is a good idea, though.

levellass
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Post by levellass » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:27 am

Well I think any SGA should be more a bonus rather than vital. A blood splattered sign, red sign, sign with skull on it, etc would be nice, so the player knows the sign means *something* but can get the basic purpose of the sign with a single glance. (The THIS IS NEAT sign by guns and stuff is a good example.)

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Grimson
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Post by Grimson » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:08 am

Exactly my thougths.

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CommanderSpleen
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Post by CommanderSpleen » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:34 pm

Alrighty, let's put aside the minefield idea and whatnot for the moment and focus on the actual structure of the map. We'll put the misty woods in place of the meadows as a plain blocking level to simplify things for now.

Firstly, I'm going ahead with moving the ford, stream and beach levels. At least one should be behind the slug area. The beach could yet go behind the dark forest, and the stream could move to another branch of the river to contribute to what lemm said about integrating the world using the water network.

The lick waterwheel will grant access to the waterfall, possibly by allowing passage across the river into an area sectioned off from the rest of that side by forest.

The left archaeological site will be inside the forest area. The lake will connect on the map to a stream branching off from the main river.

Next the area near the mineshaft needs to be spread out. After that, I have some doubts about the position of the swamps, boot hill and the lake. Should some be over the other side of the map? Further to the north-east on their own? I'd say the latter, as there is currently a nice balance of levels on either side of the slug/lick crossings. One of the swamps could be made into an optional level branching off from the other along with Boot Hill (assuming their structure stays otherwise basically the same.)

Can somebody whip up a basic outline of the terrain around that area in a way that makes some geological sense? I'm unsure of how the geyser, canyon algal pool and the mountains should interconnect. (Just noticed I left out the algal pool and foothills from that map.)

Hmm, perhaps Boot Hill would go better near the foothills, for added awesomepun. (And yes, I'm getting to that thread soon.)

Should the forest path be blocking, or just another optional level? Is it even necessary? It wasn't in the original list of levels, but lemm indicated at #pckf the other day that it shouldn't be too much trouble to patch a >32 level limit if necessary.

Currently optional levels: Meadows, Lake, Rainbow, Tree City, Dark Forest (requires firefly to enter, so needs a purpose, unless it's blocking access to another level?), Waterfall, Boot Hill.

Hmm, just looking at the map now I noticed there isn't really anything stopping you from going straight to the mineshaft after crossing the river. We need a mission or two up that way.

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Deltamatic
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Post by Deltamatic » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:11 pm

Would you mind posting another map? It would be easier to see the changes and work on it.

lemm
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Post by lemm » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:48 pm

level nums

Code: Select all

/* WMAP LEVELS */
#define LEVEL_BWB 1
#define LEVEL_WATERFALL 2
#define LEVEL_STREAM 3
#define LEVEL_SLUG_OUTPOST 4
#define LEVEL_SLUG_VILLAGE 5
#define LEVEL_SLUG_CITY 6
#define LEVEL_SLUG_BRIDGE 7
#define LEVEL_LICK_MOAT 8
#define LEVEL_LICK_CASTLE 9
#define LEVEL_LICK_WHEEL 10
#define LEVEL_LICK_BRIDGE 11
#define LEVEL_ARCHCAMP 12
#define LEVEL_ARCH1 13
#define LEVEL_ARCH2 14
#define LEVEL_ARCHTECH 15
#define LEVEL_BEACH 16
#define LEVEL_FORD 17
#define LEVEL_MEADOWS 18
#define LEVEL_MISTY 19
#define LEVEL_DARKFOREST 20
#define LEVEL_TREECITY 21
#define LEVEL_FORESTPATH 22
#define LEVEL_CANYON 23
#define LEVEL_LAKE 24
#define LEVEL_SWAMP1 25
#define LEVEL_SWAMP2 26 
#define LEVEL_FOOTHILL 27
#define LEVEL_BOOTHILL 28
#define LEVEL_GEYSER 29
#define LEVEL_RAINBOW 30
#define LEVEL_ALGAL 31
#define LEVEL_SECRET 32
#define LEVEL_MINESHAFT 33
Last edited by lemm on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lemm
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Post by lemm » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:55 pm

canyon should be part of some river, perhaps forming the waterfall?

Image

lemm
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Post by lemm » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:48 am

Image

I played around with the map, and added some contour data which might serve as a guide for transforming into isometric perspective. The left side is really cramped now because I drew the map too rectangular, but you get the idea. I agree one swamp should be moved over, but I left the middle unconnected for now..


image here
Last edited by lemm on Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Deltamatic
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Post by Deltamatic » Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:17 pm

Could someone host that picture on a little-known website? My web filter noticed that some things on Imageshack are bad, so naturally it blocks everything from Imageshack.

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CommanderSpleen
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Post by CommanderSpleen » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:23 am

That map looks amazing, lemm. And the level layout looks pretty well balanced. I'm inclined to go with that one.

Having the licks living near the mountains and the slugs in the middle of a forest adds some tasty depth. Putting boothill and foothill in those places solves a lot of problems.

So, beyond the slug/lick conflict we have these missions:
Get firefly from LEVEL_ARCHTECH to access LEVEL_FORESTPATH
Get goggles in LEVEL_DARKFOREST or LEVEL_TREECITY to cross LEVEL_CANYON and access bonus areas.
Collect n gleebs to access secret level raft at LEVEL_BEACH.

This may be sufficient with this latest map layout. The swamps and the lake are completely optional levels though. It seems like there should be something else you're searching for without knowing which level it's in...

lemm
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Post by lemm » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:29 pm

Good. A few updates, and a few questions. Updates in more detail in dropbox patchlog.txt, but I thought i'd list the crucial bits. Overarching theme here is making use of the sprite plane so that tiles are more flexible/general.

Updates

Exits
There are several kinds of exits now. There are "done" exits (type 0), "replay" exits (1), "teleport done" (2) and "teleport replay" (3) exits. You put the exit tile at the doorway as normal, and atop that in the sprite plane you put the exit code.

Done exits finish the level so that it is never reenterable.
Replay exits finish the level but it is still replayable.
Teleport exits teleport you to a location in the world map based on the sprite plane value.

Pogo

Keen always has the pogo, so pogo tile is now the very plotful "changer" tile. Place a pogo tile in tile plane. In sprite plane, Bits 0-9 are TileID to change to if the quest defined in bits A-B is complete:
Quests that can be tested (we only get 4):

0) Pepper prank is pulled
1) Cola prank is pulled
2) ????, maybe keen (doesn't) have firefly
3) Goggles are collected.

This is used, for example, in the replayable bridge levels. We want lick bridge to be lowered if cola prank is pulled. Say we have a sky tile which we want to replace by a bridge tile of tile ID 200 that keen can walk across. We make the sky tile of type Pogo. Then, in the sprite plane above it, we make the quest field 1, and the TileID field 200, so that the final sprite plane value is 1 * 1024 + 200 = 1224. (It's a very similar idea to the done tiles described in the other thread).


Other Tiles
I am trying not to redefine functions of the various tiles (eg bridges, messages) as much as possible, some have just been changed/beefed.

Doors/Keys/Points/Raygun: unchanged, single shot ammo allowed
Ship Parts: Joystick = pepper, Battery = cola poison, Vacuum = ????, Everclear = Goggles. (The firefly is a sprite, so we can have one more thing if we want.)
Bridges: Behaviour made more general; also they can go up and down.
Message tiles: Can have as many message tiles as desired in a level; sprite plane value will point to a message to be displayed. Also, no putting tiles in messages like in the keen1 BWB popup (have to be creative with font instead =)

lemm
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Post by lemm » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:51 pm

Questions

Firefly
First, forest level access could be restricted at world map like the lantern and keen 8. But I think that's sort of boring.
Second option is to make forest path always enterable, but if you do not have the firefly, the palette quickly fades to black as soon as you get a screen into the level, and unfades if you walk back to the start. We would put a message tile and a replay exit at the beginning of the level giving the player a warning and the means to escape if he doesn't have the firefly. If he does have a firefly, the palette is not changed. If he foregoes the warning, then there are a bunch of hazards near just ahead of the level entrance that all but ensure death =)

Goggles
Pretty much described in the post above and similar to forest situation. I recommend putting a replay exit + message tile near beginning of level so player isn't forced to die if no goggles found.

Swamp/Lakes Area
Spleen wrote:This may be sufficient with this latest map layout. The swamps and the lake are completely optional levels though. It seems like there should be something else you're searching for without knowing which level it's in...
http://files.commanderkeen.org/users/om ... eadows.jpg

Seems like we're still not settled on a plan here. Perhaps what keen is searching for is not an item, but advice, found in either the boothills or the tree village. See, the boot people and tree creatures are sort of hostile towards keen, but if he works his way deep enough into their residence, they eventually agree to give him advice if he leaves them alone forever (i.e., the level is done).

What does this advice do? Well, the meadows, as ceilick suggested, are this central blocking level. In that link above, I drew a possible solution to the middle of the world map. They are only accessible from the two sides of the main east/west road. In the level, there are a bunch of easy to FIND exits, but not so easy to cross as they are guarded by creatures and therefore it's a mild pain every time you wish to cross the meadows. If you find one of these exits, you respawn in an area near the lake or one of the two swamps. (In the world map, this at most one screen from the meadows entry; you aren't teleporting clear across the map, which would confuse the player).

However, if you get the message of the boot people or the tree village, you are told the exact location of the "DONE" exit. This finishes the meadows, so you never have to cross it again. In addition, there are some gleebs next to this exit making it a requirement to get to the secret level. Finally, since score/gleeb count is only saved if you are DONE a level (I think?), exiting this way adds to your final score.

What do you think? If people are opposed to that idea, we could do my backup plan which is similar in that it uses the meadows as a hub, but doesn't have all the teleport exits. Or we could just make the meadows a normal blocking meadow and keep it simple.


Additional eye candy
For the forest, if we decide to go with the lighting thing, there are a couple ways to do it. Simplest is a dark palette if no firefly, bright palette if has firefly. Otherway to do it would be to make the firefly a sprite that follows keen around (ie he tamed it after collecting it in arch site). Based on firefly distance from keen, the palette will darken to differing degree, so you have to regulate the speed of movement. The firefly would not be bounded by walls though, so you don't have to worry about it being trapped (and consequently, getting stuck in the level). Could also do similar effect in misty woods, where the palette gets darker as you walk deeper into the level (but not too dark so you can't see).

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doomjedi
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Post by doomjedi » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:17 pm

lemm wrote: Second option is to make forest path always enterable, but if you do not have the firefly, the palette quickly fades to black as soon as you get a screen into the level, and unfades if you walk back to the start. We would put a message tile and a replay exit at the beginning of the level giving the player a warning and the means to escape if he doesn't have the firefly. If he does have a firefly, the palette is not changed. If he foregoes the warning, then there are a bunch of hazards near just ahead of the level entrance that all but ensure death =)
Cool idea....I like it :)
For the forest, if we decide to go with the lighting thing, there are a couple ways to do it. Simplest is a dark palette if no firefly, bright palette if has firefly. Otherway to do it would be to make the firefly a sprite that follows keen around (ie he tamed it after collecting it in arch site). Based on firefly distance from keen, the palette will darken to differing degree, so you have to regulate the speed of movement. The firefly would not be bounded by walls though, so you don't have to worry about it being trapped (and consequently, getting stuck in the level). Could also do similar effect in misty woods, where the palette gets darker as you walk deeper into the level (but not too dark so you can't see).
I like the second option more....waaay cooler and even more challengable and scary...some areas of the screen can be in total darkness even with firefly around, sometimes firefly randomly gets closer to the player leaving big part of the screen in total darkness - and sometimes it flys further away UP to light up larger area...so you have to choose your moves and decision accoring to current firefly positions and attached lighting conditions
Last edited by doomjedi on Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Deltamatic
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Post by Deltamatic » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:31 pm

Lemm, your meadows concept is incredibly creative. I've never seen anything like it.

Your second firefly idea is much better, as doomjedi said.

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Post by lemm » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:02 am

On second thought, and after IRC with Spleen, the meadows idea is a little too complicated for keen. So, the meadows will just be a simple blocking level between left and right of the map, and the swamps + lake are still all optional levels. I will put in two entrances for the meadow level depending on if you have pranked with the pepper or the cola, and there can be just one exit in the middle of the level.

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