On the topic of points...

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levellord
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Post by levellord »

Well thats not too much of a problem.
KeenRush
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Post by KeenRush »

But I would like to hear some nice sound!
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grelphy
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Post by grelphy »

Aaargh! Not the endless sound of point items being grabbed! My brother did that once - with batteries. The soundeffectw were maddening and continuous, and I swore off large swaths of point items forever.

It would be interesting to implement a patch, whereby every time you lost a life, your score would go down by 20,000 (or do some other bit of math to prevent die-point-die's). For example, the "dying" subroutine could lead to a routine that subtacts 20,000 from the score. Assembly is a bit over my head, but I don't see any reason it should be impossible. Maybe use some of that left over space from the teleport patch.

Another way to limit points would be to avoid signifigant point items, and implement a patch whereby finishing a level bestows upon you some number of points (10,000 would be a good number). Thus, collecting points has little effect on your score (maybe patch everything to 1/100th of it's original value - 1, 2, 5, 10, 50, etc.). This would be maddening for people who enjoy racking up huge scores by exploring every secret area, but it would work.

Okay, that's the end of my ideas. All require signifigant patching, but so does everything else nowadays. =)
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Post by KeenRush »

Very good ideas grelphy!
I especially like the last one; making finishing level to give more points and point items only small points.

Oh, and why does so many hate those pc-speaker sounds from collecting items or stuff? I love those sounds! :)
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Ceilick
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Post by Ceilick »

Firstly, since this is a 10 year necro, let me summarize a few thoughts from the past. In addittion, this thread can be referenced for hinostrical purposes as well: http://publiccommanderkeenforum.yuku.co ... xI1T1iYbs0

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-What purpose, if any, do points and score serve?

-Points are "not particularly indicative of a player's skill level" due to keeping them after player death.

-Farming points with extra lives is frowned upon.

-Points are rewards for challenges.

-"points are really just meant for the enjoyment of the player." "Regardless of whether the points are necessarily balanced to the edge of perfection...they're still fun to collect."

-Points could represents a player's "completion percentage of my game--I put exactly 20,000 points in every level; thus a perfect score is 360,000 (16 levels, 4 ship parts)"

-The highscores table means very little

-"I try at least to make the high scores I include with my mod a challenge so that only someone who is at least okay at Keening will be able to get a place."
What is the point of points?

Points can serve the following purposes:

1. Ultimately they show completion percentage if there is an established maximum point limit.
2. They are rewards for completeing challenges. They are either in addition to the reward of progress, or standalone.
3. Having a certain number of points can unlock secrets or endings.
4. They give the player something to do and see. Jumping up to grab some points while crossing a platform is more fun than just crossing.

In summary, points liven a level, attract player's attention to an extent and can make players feel good regardless of the 'point of points',. The immediate function of points is as sentimental shinys. However, they can also potentially measure game completion and give the player actual bonus material (secrets, endings). They can have objective purpose.

In order to attain the objective purposes of points, we've generally all come to recognize that our points need to be reset when entering a level. The only issue with this, which appears in Keen Galaxy only, is that carrying the points over is theoretically treated as a potential reward for repeating the level after death rather than reloading mid level. However, since this reward is also critical in what makes points pointless, it fails as a meaningful reward and can be dismissed.

If points now have a purpose, how can we make the High Score table more functional and fun?

If there is a maximum number of points, there can be a 'perfect' game. The player should be aware of what the perfect score is, and it should be HARD to achieve. However, it should not be listed on the high score table (although perhaps in the help menu), nor should the highscores contain arbitrary default scores.

Highscores are a salvageable mechanic from the arcades that we can maintain, even if only a single individual plays a given copy of the mod. This is because we are a community, we can include legitimate highscores with our mods from the community (the individuals behind the mod's development and/or beta testers) that can at least potentially mean something to whoever is playing. These need to be both legitimate and imperfect scores to create any real feeling of competition, attainability, and degree of achievement.

As far as actual point placement in levels go, thinking in these terms impresses on me the need to actually pay attention to point values in item placement and to each level's max possible score. Partially due to lack of objective meaning in points without patching, but I've generally considered them in my own level design in the past as little more than things to jump into on the way through a level.
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Post by levellass »

A lot of my mods have a maximum possible score, but I don't think that anyone pays enough attention to the high scores to do much with them. It's a great idea if there was more interest but I just don't see people taking it seriously in any of the mods we have out currently.

What would interest me is mechanics that changed the dynamics of points; as they are currently you pick up large numbers (100 pts minimum) in arcs and bunches throughout the level. Points are floaty stuff you just run into or grab as you pass through the level. Are there alternatives?

Possibly having much lower points (1, 2 5 pts) not given in abundance but as much rarer items (Say a single 5 pt item in 1 room, 2 1pt ones in a hall) This would make points less incidental. Combined with unlocking patches (One of these was planned but not implemented in ROIB) points could be made far more important to progress than just a high score. Something like this was done reccently in a Keen 1 mod.
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Post by Ceilick »

Levellass wrote:A lot of my mods have a maximum possible score, but I don't think that anyone pays enough attention to the high scores to do much with them.
This is an important point. Part of the problem I think is that it is ostensibly the case that mod authors don't pay enough attention to high scores or the maximal score either. Unlike some mod features, this isn't exactly one that will 'just work' without the mod author drawing the player's attention to it and how it works.
Levellas wrote:What would interest me is mechanics that changed the dynamics of points; as they are currently you pick up large numbers (100 pts minimum) in arcs and bunches throughout the level. Points are floaty stuff you just run into or grab as you pass through the level. Are there alternatives?
This is part of what points are, and in my opinion, a very important one; they give the player something to do and see. You're right though, not all points, and probably not even most points, should be so easily attainable. We can have easy grab points and points that are actual rewards.
Levellass wrote:Possibly having much lower points (1, 2 5 pts) not given in abundance but as much rarer items (Say a single 5 pt item in 1 room, 2 1pt ones in a hall) This would make points less incidental.
While this would work, it makes for a more simple and straighforward experience (perfectly acceptable and fun for a mod looking to accomplish this atmosphere). Lots of points worth high numbers creates a sense of grandeur, in my opinion, which is a quality of "keenishness" in its original form.
Levellass wrote:Combined with unlocking patches (One of these was planned but not implemented in ROIB) points could be made far more important to progress than just a high score. Something like this was done reccently in a Keen 1 mod.
While a good mechanic, one I intend to use in my Keen 1 mod, points in this state essentially cease to be 'point items': they are now, basically, keys.
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Post by Benvolio »

Ceilick wrote:While a good mechanic, one I intend to use in my Keen 1 mod, points in this state essentially cease to be 'point items': they are now, basically, keys.
This is indeed a valid concern and a wise comment. However, if points serve as keys, you must surely see that they serve as (potentially) more complex keys. But also without some of the obvious characteristics inherent to keys (e.g doors). Point items used in this way can be weighed up against the challenges impeding the player from acquiring them. This could of course also be done with traditional keys - say by having two pathways to the exit, or two instances of a certain colour key. But, in the case of the points, one item could yield a quantifiably more substantial reward than another.

A largely untapped resource in Keen modding is the negative point item. Simply having a tile that detracts 100 points from a player's score could add complexity to a scenario, whereby such a sacrifice may be made by a player, and seen as a fate preferable to death. A blunder made in a level could be negated by paying a penalty - say a point-removing item embedded between a bottomless pit and safety.

I think that someone with sufficient talent and, perhaps more importantly, time, could really create an interesting strategy-based Keen mod, with a level of ingenuity as yet unseen in Keen, using some of the above described mechanics. I don't know how worthwhile this is, given that it would deviate ever-further from the original Keenishness of the game. But it would sure be interesting. And if there is one thing that has consistently characterised Keen modding, it is that it serves as an excellent platform for creating interesting things. I for one love seeing new ideas and mechanics tried, with the understanding that the vast majority of them will not become standard practice. The automatic side-scroll (Extinction, Banana Mod) is a good example - amazingly fun and challenging, yet I would hate to think that everyone would feel the need to use it in every mod they made.[/quote]
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Post by Bernie »

Benvolio wrote:
Ceilick wrote:A largely untapped resource in Keen modding is the negative point item. Simply having a tile that detracts 100 points from a player's score could add complexity to a scenario
ahhh damnit! in my ROIB mod that levellass mentioned earlier i wanted to do exactly that with collectable vegetables. but i didnt know how at the time and so just made them kill the player instead :(
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Ceilick
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Post by Ceilick »

Benvolio wrote:However, if points serve as keys, you must surely see that they serve as (potentially) more complex keys. But also without some of the obvious characteristics inherent to keys (e.g doors).
Oh definitely, and actually the 'point keys' in my mod DO have doors attached to them (thread here); 100 points allows the player to open the door.
Benvolio wrote:A largely untapped resource in Keen modding is the negative point item.
Absolutely true, and I think so far untapped simply because we, by and large, haven't mastered making the point system work; we haven't imposed points and/or the high score as largely desirable to players have simply relied on any pre-existing desires from players to want points.

Bernie's idea for vegetables filling the anti-point role is fantastically Keenish.
Last edited by Ceilick on Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by levellass »

Indeed. While converting an existing point item into a negative is possible it is only recently making negative point item tiles has been possible, until then they had to be sprites.

This gives pause for thought, points are a very basic part of the gaming experience.
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Post by Vatnos »

Points are like a precursor to the more modern concept of achievements. They're meaningless for completing the game but they're sort of a minigame you can fiddle with.

Since you can die in a level and replay it over and over to gain more lives and points in Keen games, the points are 'pointless'. If you could only retain the points by beating the level, then they have meaning. Then that would incentivize exploring the full level rather than getting the easiest items and dying over and over to regain them.
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Post by Ceilick »

Functionally true, but any player of Commander Keen and the mods of it has been conditioned to the pointlessness of points. Simply fixing the mechanism by patching isn't going to alert what seems to me a good deal of the player base that points, and score, are worth achieving.
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Post by Vatnos »

Ceilick wrote:Functionally true, but any player of Commander Keen and the mods of it has been conditioned to the pointlessness of points. Simply fixing the mechanism by patching isn't going to alert what seems to me a good deal of the player base that points, and score, are worth achieving.
It isn't a big bold gameplay change, but I don't think it needs to be. It's subtle, sublime, but tasteful.

It would make it so that the maximum amount of points would involve getting every obtainable item in every level, which is a real challenge in all of the Keen games. Thus the high scores would have meaning. They would show who has completed the game the most thoroughly. As more hidden items are found in a game it would cause people to have a reason to replay it. In levels where you can't take every path and get every item and you have to choose, strategies would evolve over time for what the most rewarding pathway is.

The fact that cheats could be used to get all the items devalues this idea somewhat. But... another patch could make it so that if cheats are ever turned on in the game, the high score is wiped clean.
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Ceilick
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Post by Ceilick »

This much has been said though; points become functional and theoretically players can measure something with them.
Xky from 2004 wrote:Points could represents a player's "completion percentage
Ceilick wrote:If there is a maximum number of points, there can be a 'perfect' game.
It doesn't address how players of keen games and mods have, essentially, been conditioned otherwise. In independent game making, just having the system work is probably enough; players have a clean slate to draw their own conclusions on the game's items. Keen mods have the contextual side effect of association with each other, especially for us oldsters, I would think, who have played the 50+ mods out there as they were released and have collected bajillions of 'empty' points across them. This "Keen context" is a 'feature' with positives and negatives, but point items suffer an immense drawback in it, I think. Perhaps I myself am an anomaly in point collecting, but I just don't see players pursuing score/highscores just because they may notice a mod only allows points to be scored once. Further attention than mere functionality is worth investment.

I'm essentially echoing Levellass,
Levellass wrote:A lot of my mods have a maximum possible score, but I don't think that anyone pays enough attention to the high scores to do much with them. It's a great idea if there was more interest but I just don't see people taking it seriously in any of the mods we have out currently.
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