Graphical talk

Discussion and analysis of graphics, story, levels, and so on.
KeenRush
Patch Maker
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:52 pm
Location: Sand Yego
Contact:

Graphical talk

Post by KeenRush »

Ok, well, probably at least Xky finds this thread interesting.. ;)

It can be sometimes hard to make up some tiles that you think are good and what player wants to look at.

Well, I have invented new tiles quite well, but the problem is in the drawing; it's hard to draw your vision.
But when I manage to do some of them well, I'm quite proud of them. You haven't seen my graphics for a while, and probably won't recognize my next mod is made by me because the graphic is so much different of Yorphius graphs (which I am not very proud of).

Lately I've had some good ideas, and they've struck me when they shouldn't. When I have now read for the exams, I get interesting ideas from the pics in my chemistry book or math geometry book.
Or well, I don't mind I've got ideas - not at all, but it's hard to concentrate reading while you have nice graphic ideas for your next mods.. I'm going to try something totally new after getting this current mod out. (Yeah, I've said that about four months already, but..)

So, the point:
Look around. Behind. Out of the window. Everywhere.
You might get interesting ideas, good tip can be try to draw/scetch them on a sheet of paper (which I don't do, but I really should) and later drawing them.

Good idea in tile design might be the following.
Imagine yourself walking in the level. Make your not-dangerous solid tiles to look like you yourself could walk on them, dangerous tiles to look like something you would never touch.
And candy tiles to something you would eat. ;)


Well, I got another boring thread made, hope you reply.. I hope this is useful for someone.
Joseph

take the uniqueness and use it again

Post by Joseph »

I take inspiration from my dreams sometimes, since my mind can create these fantastic worlds and envision them in a way I can't. Currently I'm perplexed about how to draw this one tile design, it should be possible to draw something similar but the actually art is beyond my current abilities.

I also like to do what KeenRush does, I'm constantly looking for graphically unique and pretty things in this world. I try to distinguish what makes one sunset more beautiful than another and how to synthesize this beauty. Generally, I remember the design for beauty in something I see, and recreate it for something else, something that's completely different.
User avatar
CommanderSpleen
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:11 pm
Location: The Land of Sparkly Things
Contact:

Graphical Musings.

Post by CommanderSpleen »

When I have now read for the exams, I get interesting ideas from the pics in my chemistry book or math geometry book.
Exams are fun for idea generation in my experience... I've got about five or six mini-drawings of various description that I drew on the back of a heap of name cards. I never take exams seriously, so I'd sit there and do what I could before I got bored with the questions, then I'd start drawing things, and I'd emerge with an intriguing drawing with a heap of ideas stored in it for future use.

I use a similar technique sometimes when I'm particularly bored, or when I'm listening to some particularly inspiring music. Grabbing a blank piece of paper and a felt-tip pen (sometimes just a ball-point pen, lately I've tried it with some gel pens I bought on special from the local supermarket) I'll sit there for an hour or so just drawing whatever comes to mind. By the end of it, I'll have a heap of random images that can serve as the basis for future works, whether for a game, another drawing, redecorating a DJ booth or just tripping out other people.
Look around. Behind. Out of the window. Everywhere.
This is where I get a lot of my best ideas. There's a lot of amazing stuff out there if you decide to look closely enough. Even the most mundane, everyday places can offer a trove of ideas if you stop taking them for granted for a few minutes. When you do this often, it seems the world goes out of its way to bring you inspiring images. My world really is a lot weirder than most fiction, which is why my fiction is particularly whacked out.

Over the past few months, I've noticed a lot of cloud formations, mostly at night, that have given me a lot of crazy ideas for the map level of Monky Business (ominous white clouds covering sparkly things on a pitch black background). And just this morning (around 12:30), walking home from the pub, I noticed a rather intriguing garden formation that I now intend to replicate somewhere (possibly in an upcoming Keen4 mod).

Hopefully I end up with access to a digital camera sometime soon, so I can take photos of all this classy stuff I keep seeing everywhere. Then I'll be able to reference the ideas whenever I want.

My advice: take photos, whether with a camera or with your mind (I've managed to cultivate an increasingly clear photographic memory over the past couple of years, so I'm convinced with some effort anyone can do this).
Imagine yourself walking in the level.
This is one of my favourite techniques. I'm constantly immersing myself in weird and wonderful worlds of surreality. Much of it, as with Joseph, is beyond my capacity to translate into an outer image, but I do what I can.

Never have I managed such a thing quite as well as the UIT post I wrote soon after joining the PCKB. That was fun, and it brought about a lot of crazy plans.
Generally, I remember the design for beauty in something I see, and recreate it for something else, something that's completely different.
I've often taken ideas from buildings and machinery and such and used them when designing creatures, landscapes or structures of a different context from the original progenitors. Most of my ideas are of an abstract style, so what little I do base on reality is often mixed with other sources of inspiration as to be completely unrecognisable.
I take inspiration from my dreams sometimes, since my mind can create these fantastic worlds and envision them in a way I can't.
I'm fortunate enough to have a couple of friends who have imaginations as active as mine, if not moreso. We'll take an idea, and talk our way through an adventure in a world of tripped out madness.

---

The main problem I have is that I have too many ideas to keep up with. And once I have an idea, I'll keep trying to add onto it until I finally get bored of it and move onto something completely different. And on top of that, I have a million conflicting ambitions that cause me to follow one path for a month, then suddenly turn around and take a different route the next, leaving all sorts of projects half-completed behind me.
Invariably I'll pick a couple of them back up in the future and make them even better, but I end up frustrated if I try this at the wrong time. I'd rather complete something once in a while than just keep leaving things half-finished like that.

---

Most of the ideas I have used for CK:MB were drawn down on paper first (you can see a few pages of development work at Spleen Keen) and then tranformed into tiles via MSPaint.

The easiest way, for me, to develop ideas and graphics is through free-association. I just sit there and draw. When I consciously try to create a specific image, I end up frustrated and disappointed with the end result, which is why I've learned to release any expectations before I begin and just go with the flow.

It works the same for my projects--either I'm fully engrossed in them, or I can't stand the thought of working on them. I'm sure there's a way to use this to my advantage, but I'm still in the process of finding it.

---

Well, there's my semi-off topic take on the matter.

>Commander Spleen
User avatar
levellord
Crazy pAtChEr
Posts: 1401
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:35 pm
Location: NewZealand
Contact:

Post by levellord »

When I'm stuck for ideas I like to look at whats already been done and think 'How can I add my own style to this?"
Ilsoap
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:04 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Ooh... I like this topic.

Post by Ilsoap »

Artistic inspiration... very important. You can not be inspired to create something unique artistically if you're in front of the computer 24/7.

One advantage of being at an animation school is that very occasionally we get guest speakers. Early this year, we recieved a visit from a guy who was an employee of Lucasfilms... he did some of the wide scene shots in "The Phantom Menace", along with other Industrial Light & Magic stuff. One of the amazing things was that a lot of these sequences weren't created on top-of-the-line equipment if they didn't have to be. Most of the sequences added to the original Star Wars in the mid-90's were done on computers that are probably of less quality and processing power than the one you're on right now. But that's not the point of this.

He got to a point where he was talking about artistic influences, and although he was speaking specifically to texture artists, this would apply to any of you (even us 16-color DOS geeks). There were some students, him included, who wanted to become good texture artists. The guy who had recently employed them, gave this as their first assignment: "Take 200 pictures of metal."

Of course, they couldn't understand this, said "What? 200 pictures of metal? Why?". But the employer wouldn't give them any other assignment until they'd finished the first one. So, the students each went out with digital cameras (or regular ones, I can't remember), and took 200 pictures of metal. They brought the pictures back and said, "OK, NOW can we work on an assignment?" The employer said "Now, take 200 pictures of glass." The students were even more annoyed, but took 200 pictures of glass. When they came back with the pictures, the employer said "Take 200 pictures of wood." And so on, and so on.

Eventually, the students got the point. Looking at those pictures, every piece of glass had a unique color, every piece of metal had unique contours and rust patterns, every piece of wood had some characteristic that made it unique. Because of that assignment, before they had to texture any 3D environment or character, they'd do the research first, however they could, to understand better what they're trying to create out of 1's and 0's.

So if you want to be a good artist, even in something as basic as this, you gotta observe everything. Notice the reflections in your fork, spend a minute or two watching the colors motor oil makes when it's floating in a pool of water, and watch how a bird's wing unfolds (ducks are good for that last one). That's all it takes to be a good artist. Well, that, and practice with the instrument you're using to create. But observe first.
User avatar
levellord
Crazy pAtChEr
Posts: 1401
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:35 pm
Location: NewZealand
Contact:

Post by levellord »

Good, now take 200 pictures of a 16 colour palette...
KeenRush
Patch Maker
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:52 pm
Location: Sand Yego
Contact:

Post by KeenRush »

Yes, very good post Ilsoap. :)
User avatar
XkyRauh
Posts: 1114
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:14 pm
Location: San Diego, California

re: Developing graphics

Post by XkyRauh »

Man, I'd never really sat down to think about where I start designing my graphics... But now that I consider it, it's pretty obvious that my designs all start with basic shapes. Circles and Squares, occasional Triangles. Can't say I've ever done much research, beyond natural observations I make while playing old NES games.

Being a texture artist is something I'd never dream of attempting--I really don't have the mettle for it. Half the reason I'm even marginally successful as a Keen modder is the limited palette. Even the little step up to 256 colors is more than I can really handle. O_o

As far as translating the world around me into graphics goes, I'd call myself a reductionist. Some folks try to get every little detail of an item into their translations--etching out all the keys on a keyboard, the scratches on a curb, the pockmarks of a building, which one of the ceiling lights is out, etc. I miss the little details like that, and just try to capture the shape of everything.

Kinda obvious when you look at my mod's graphics--everything's very blocky... This thread will help me find new ways to look at things. :-) Thanks, KeenRush! (and everyone who responded!)

--Xky
User avatar
levellord
Crazy pAtChEr
Posts: 1401
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:35 pm
Location: NewZealand
Contact:

Post by levellord »

Even the little step up to 256 colors is more than I can really handle. O_o
Same here, although I work well in 32 colours.
everything's very blocky... This thread will help me find new ways to look at things. :-) Thanks, KeenRush! (and everyone who responded!)
What needs inproving? Judging by your last mod your graphics almost outpace Keen4 (Definitely Keen dreams.)
KeenRush
Patch Maker
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:52 pm
Location: Sand Yego
Contact:

Post by KeenRush »

16 colours is just good and enough for me.. :)

Yeah Xky, garg it! It's annoying you always tell you have to improve something even you're stuff is already the coolest! :P

By the way, yesterday I drew on paper. I got really good ideas for enemies, collectiables and textures for my Keen 2 that I'll start after getting the current done. :)
User avatar
CommanderSpleen
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:11 pm
Location: The Land of Sparkly Things
Contact:

Play Games! Pay Attention!

Post by CommanderSpleen »

Good, now take 200 pictures of a 16 colour palette...
You've just given me a brilliant idea... I'm gonna start taking photos of different games, using different machines, and in different settings. That way, eventually I can create games that suit various types of decor.
I miss the little details like that, and just try to capture the shape of everything.
I could do with some work in that area... when I'm drawing something in particular, rather than something random that evolves on its own, I tend to keep adding more and more details as I notice them. This habit applies to a lot of the things I do, and is probably why a lot of my projects drift into obscurity after I semi-abandon them--I can always find something I can change to fit in more detail.

With tiles and other game art, I usually manage to work out where to stop, at least where the individual tiles/sprites are concerned. But when I take a look at the bigger picture, I can always see problems with the tileset and the animations, and when I'm playtesting the game frequently, these inconsistencies can really get to me. Often I end up convincing myself the problems are too overwhelming and I can't be bothered tackling them. That's where my projects go downhill.
Circles and Squares, occasional Triangles.
I often start with a particular shape in mind, and let things evolve from there. Usually there's one particular shape, or combination of shapes, that dominates my thoughts, and when it comes to drawing things I end up with all sorts of combinations based on the one underlying basis.

Monky Business has been influenced a lot by triangles so far, and you'll probably notice this a lot when the mod is released (though undoubtedly by then it'll have been influenced by many other shapes as well).
Even the little step up to 256 colors is more than I can really handle. O_o
I developed my sprite drawing skills using KnP and TGF, and the visual effects of games like Jazz Jackrabbit and Jill of the Jungle (All those Js...) really fascinated me, so the 256-colour palette has ingrained itself into my psyche. I was surprised when it came to creating graphics for Keen just how well I could handle 16 colours.
By the way, yesterday I drew on paper. I got really good ideas for enemies, collectiables and textures for my Keen 2 that I'll start after getting the current done. :)
Excellent to hear you're making progress. =(:D)-
What needs inproving? Judging by your last mod your graphics almost outpace Keen4 (Definitely Keen dreams.)
I agree entirely. But don't let us hold you back from making things even more mind-blowing!
You can not be inspired to create something unique artistically if you're in front of the computer 24/7.
Most definitely. Although I spend a hell of a lot of time using computers overall, I somehow manage to spend even more away from them. This time away, while impeding the overall progress of my works in progress, gives me the ability to readjust ideas and absorb new details, which, upon my return to cyberspace, results in new ways of looking at things, and thus improves the quality of my projects (not to mention it keeps me from becoming sane and thinking too much).

---

Another thing I've noticed recently is the influence so many games have had on my graphics style. Playing Clyde's Adventure in the past couple of weeks, I've noticed it has had a definite impact on the very nature of CK:MB, and so many of the tiles have been unconsciously derived from the game. The general 'trippiness' I've been aiming at has undoubtedly resulted, partially, from the surreality of the Jazz Jackrabbit games.

When I'm playing games that I recognise as influential to my works, I'm then able to notice various details that make those games great, which can in turn be used to make my own games better.

And of course, playing a wide variety of games spawns all sorts of crazy level ideas and storyline elements, and can even aid the smaller details like fonts, shading, animation styles, and so forth.

So: Play lots of games, and lots of different types of games. And pay attention.

>Commander Spleen[/quote]
JosephBurke-

flaws and the beauty

Post by JosephBurke- »

Personally, I don't understand (completely) the balance between flaws that bring out the beauty in something and when those same flaws become too overwhelming. For example, having a really detailed great looking tile in a game is good, but if you make it so it doesn’t tile properly then people will focus in on the individual tile and appreciate it more. The con here is that your game wont be that fluid, so when is it worth it and how does this reflect on artistic style?
KeenRush
Patch Maker
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:52 pm
Location: Sand Yego
Contact:

Post by KeenRush »

Sir, what if there is no balance nor any laws for that? Maybe you just have 256^16 possibilities for that thing on your 16 x 16 tile (assuming I counted right, probably didn't, too lazy to think now). :)

So, if I understood your post correctly, I would suggest making some special tiles and place them there and there.
xtraverse
Patch Crafter
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:42 pm
Location: Easter Island
Contact:

//

Post by xtraverse »

nope, 16^256 :P
JosephBurke-

fluid

Post by JosephBurke- »

Yes, I suppose you are right KeenRush. Though any ideas and thoughts, however random, would be welcome.

Specifically I use a style that demands a compromise in unique detail to make things look fluid. This basically means removing (or changing slightly) the stronger points in each tiling graphic, once these points are gone the eye wont be drawn to them and things look fluid. I don't like doing this since the original graphic was always best, but it helps to keep the player's mind focused where it's supposed to be. This compromise is always small though. :)
Post Reply