Ground Tiles

Discussion and analysis of graphics, story, levels, and so on.
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XkyRauh
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Ground Tiles

Post by XkyRauh »

Let's get some discussion going about Ground Tiles, and how to construct them from the ground up.

Keen:Vorticons makes this job easy, as there are no inclines. The most basic tile can look like a square:
Image

This can build hills reasonably well, as each tile is self-contained. If one wanted to get fancy, it's not unfeasible to produce a 9 tile "blockset" to build levels out of:
Image

The only trouble you might run into is how to deal with inside corners, but that's an extra 4 tiles that rounds out your set without difficulty.

So in short, basic squares: 13-16 tiles for full functionality.




What if we want to add perspective? The simplest way to do it is to split the tops of your blocks into two tiles, like this:
Image

And then produce a 12-tile building-block template:
Image

Again, you might have to produce a 4-tile inner corner set to round out your troubles.

In short, the tilted perspective gives much more impressive visuals with only slightly higher requirements: 16-20 tiles for full functionality.





All of this, however, goes out the window when we hit Keen:Galaxy. Suddenly the view is 3/4 tilted, and there's two different inclines.

To be honest, I'm absolutely stumped on how to conceptualize this.

Image
The number of tiles is more than four times that of Keen:Vorticons. In order to build inclines in both directions, transition between them, and include all the gizmos, that's over 100 tiles. That doesn't even include the tiling undersides of the ground blocksets, or the thin jump-through platforms.

Am I doing this wrong? :\ That's a LOT more work... how can we make this process easier?
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ckguy
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Post by ckguy »

You don't have to go with the complete 3d view. I liked the way that Episode Null had tilted perspective floors just at the entrances. When I think about it, the job is quite intimidating, isn't it? I think a nice idea would be if the community collaboratively would generate some sort of 'skeleton' tileset for the ground tiles, with everything nicely laid out, but just with black ground, and white outlines, or something like that. As a (potential!) Keen 4-6 mod maker, you need to decide whether you want to basically follow the same tiles as are used in regular Keen 4, or whether you want to move everything around, and put it in a more intuitive layout. This second case would require lots of tileinfo work, and would also benefit more from the skeleton-tileset. You decide. I'm going to sleep soon, actually, otherwise I think I'd start looking into making that tileset thing.

(edit) Also, completely irrelevant, but this happened to me on megaupload the other day: (of course I screencapped it!)

Image
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XkyRauh
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Post by XkyRauh »

The K4 default tilesets are laid out brilliantly for use with TED5. With TED5, you can copy-paste entire sections of tiles out of the set, so it's easy to construct levels out of the building blocks.

My main complaint/issue/reason I made the thread was a sort of exasperated "THIS IS WHERE I'M STUCK" sort of deal, explaining the epic level of work required for ONE tileset in K:G relative to K:V.

I had a fair bit of discussion with CheesyDave about this--I think I'm going to build the ground more in line with the way those opening sections of XkyKeen2 looked--a straight-back perspective (like the middle example above) and not use the 3/4 view. It's just too complex for me, at this point in time. :(
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Malvineous
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Post by Malvineous »

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem, but presumably you could draw a single top-down view of the ground surface, as if the camera is directly overhead looking down at the ground. Once you've got that any half decent image editor should be able to rotate the image at all the relevant angles to produce the desired perspective shots, then all you need to do is overlay that on top of the "underground dirt" and there's your tileset.
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XkyRauh
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Post by XkyRauh »

While that's true, my problem with using image-distortion is that it makes everything look homogenous... I couldn't stand the way the pre-fab-based Donkey Kong Country looked, for example.

I can make a few basic pieces of ground that look good on their own--the trouble is that seeing the same basic structures everywhere gets old quickly. I'm trying to find ways to add variety without adding such a workload in tiles. In the space it takes to set up a single K:G-style blockset (~120 tiles) you can have at least 6 fully functional tilesets in K:V, even with perspective!
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levellord
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Post by levellord »

When making a tileset, the first thing *I* do is make a 16x16 pattern, the 'tile fill' if you will. I experiment with different patterns, lines, spheres, blocks, then when I find one I like, I color and shade it the way I want, and use it as a template.

The next thing I do is arrange it into a block, usually 3x3, and clean up the edges and top, adding vegetation, walls, etc, that gives me the basic tileset. I'll test this by building a basic level with this, to see how things look overall in bulk.

If that step is successful, I'll build further additions to the tileset, such as water borders, pipes, rocks, whatever suits the mood of it.

As for Keen 4+; I've tried working with that, and I don't like it one bit, it's far too complex for me. I'll stick to 1-3, it's in my blood.
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XkyRauh
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Post by XkyRauh »

With that kind of attitude, though, we'll be limited to rather basic Keen:Galaxy mods! :) This is a brainstorming thread--trying to figure out methods for producing these larger-scale landmasses without our heads exploding.

Malv has already recommended the use of an image editing program to rotate, distort, and angle the ground. Works better for sterile environments, but can be useful for a uniform, clean approach.
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Post by KeenRush »

Well, but it is a head-exploding process. I don't think there's any easy way, too bad. One of the reasons I won't touch the 'new' Keens for a while. I wonder what way the creators used back in the day...
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ckguy
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Post by ckguy »

KeenRush wrote:I wonder what way the creators used back in the day...
Something makes me want to say "Deluxe Paint II Enhanced" It's a pretty good old paint program, with lots more features than MS Paint. The main problem is that it only reads/writes weird file formats, .LBM and .PCX, IIRK.

You can download lots of different versions here.
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Post by KeenRush »

I meant more like did they use something program to rotate or did everything by hand or what.
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Post by levellass »

One of the most important parts of making a tileset is a tileset is a picture (or an image if you prefer), yes that’s it, just a picture. If you do not like drawing pictures, then making a tileset is not for you. A problem with drawing tilesets, is keeping the tiles aligned. If your tiles are unaligned, even by just ONE pixel, your whole tileset will be a mess. I’ve had it happen before quite a few times, and believe me, it is not a nice thing. It could take hours to fix. However, there is a simple way to prevent this from happening, making a grid. With a grid, you have a guide to show you exactly where to draw your tiles to keep everything aligned. I prefer something like this:

Image

I think planning is important too, whenever you go to make a tileset, you should plan ahead a general idea of what you're going to draw and how. Since it will probably take a long time to finnish, to avoid forgetting things, it helps to wirte down notes and sketches for later viewing. I do this all the time. (Then I lose the notes.)

First I plan a theme; an overall subject for my tileset. Hi-tech fortress say, or forest. After that I make up a lot of sub-theme for it; since Keen will use the same tiles in all levels and can only use *some* of the whole set, it does pay to have a number of smaller subsections, some of which may be totally unrelated to the main theme. (The Well of Wishes for example seems to fit poorly with the rest of the game, if you did not see the level entrance, you would wonder what the level was doing there.)

Then of course there is 'eye-candy' which I hear a lot about these days, just little things that you add to your level to break up the monotony. It seems that the insertion of large foreground objects, and random background patterns seems to be the most effective way of spicing up a level, though small little 'irregularities' and random tiles seem to be more flexible.

I'll write more when I have more time, but that's me for now.
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ckguy
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Post by ckguy »

Heh, that grid thing is a really good idea.

(Also, hi LLa, haven't seen you in a little while!)
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Post by levellass »

I've been pregnant, that sort of thing keeps you away from the boards a lot. However I am no longer in this condition and have a few days peace before I have to go home and begin midnight feedings.
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